General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

discus the finer details of classes and disciplines
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Psyentific
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General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Psyentific » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:55 am

Weapon ATR is derived from weapon skill, and weapon damage is derived from the relevant stat. This directly translates to spell/power ATR/DAM. That is, a Templar's Burning Blade derives its Attack from Sword and Thaumaturgy and its (max) damage from the Templar's STR; The same Templar's Cleansing Flame derives its ATR from the Templar's Thaumaturgy and its damage from the Templar's INT.

DEF is derived primarily from Dexterity, but also gains flat bonuses from Armor, Jewelry, and Shield, and armor weight caps DEX. Does anyone know the formula for Armor Weight, as it caps Dex? Could you make a Dex-based Deftoon using medium armor, and would it compare to a Light Armor equivalent?

What do the Armor skills influence? Is there any point to putting trains in them past 100% for armor unlocks? Would 250% Medium Armor provide me with higher def from the same armor? Would it raise the dex cap on the armor, indirectly allowing for a higher def?

How powerful are Passive Defenses? Would trains in Parry, Block, or Dodge be better spent elsewhere (Hammer or Liturgy, for example?) - Would you consider passive defense skills top priority (Always-Gold), second priority (Important), or low priority (Spare points only past 100)?

What's the ratio on Toughness and Athletics, for % to HP and % to Stam respectively? Eyeballing it, how much HP would 100% Toughness get me?

What's the range on Scout Track? Morloch Wiki has Scout, Ranger, Thief, Huntsman, and Bounty Hunter all at the same track range (~1200), with Huntress having the longest track at ~1400. Is this current? How long 1200 units work out to, in-game terms? What's the "On Scroll" range, where you see combat messages and /say chatter?

Assuming T-Stanced Humanoid Runspeed, and that the track beelines for you, from the edge of track (again, 1200), as soon as you get him on track, how much warning would you have? I'm asking more for a ballpark than anything else - You probably have a feel for it through experience.

What are common classes, and what are their weaknesses? Their strengths? For example, Sentinels have nothing that isn't a PBAOE, and I know for a fact that my dual-sword Ranger has next to no ranged attacks, and no AoE; However, in melee range it takes things apart. What's the analogous strengths and weaknesses on Druids? Barbarians? Crusaders? Huntresses? Insert-Common-Class-Here?

Why do I see next to no Furies, Channelers, Doomsayers, Wizards in the field? Why have I never once seen a Necromancer? Does that have to do with the class's ability to solo, or is it something else? If I had to hazard a guess, it'd be that Healers and Mages don't get access to Track disciplines or not-Skah! stealth, so they have no situational awareness or engagement control.

In solo/smallgroup PvP, what're your primary factors in deciding whether or not to engage? Numbers? Levels? Class matchups? Class & Race Combination (That is, estimating the builds)?
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by unfringed » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:58 am

Psyentific wrote:Weapon ATR is derived from weapon skill, and weapon damage is derived from the relevant stat. This directly translates to spell/power ATR/DAM. That is, a Templar's Burning Blade derives its Attack from Sword and Thaumaturgy and its (max) damage from the Templar's STR; The same Templar's Cleansing Flame derives its ATR from the Templar's Thaumaturgy and its damage from the Templar's INT.
Skills also raise damage some, but not by a huge amount.
Psyentific wrote:DEF is derived primarily from Dexterity, but also gains flat bonuses from Armor, Jewelry, and Shield, and armor weight caps DEX. Does anyone know the formula for Armor Weight, as it caps Dex? Could you make a Dex-based Deftoon using medium armor, and would it compare to a Light Armor equivalent?
Dex penalties actually come from a hidden attribute of armor called "encumbrance", not armor weight which is visible. I don't know of any formula that's publicly available, but since the armor patch the rule of thumb is the lowest penalties are on class armor, slightly higher penalties on racial/discipline armor, and the highest penalties on generic armor, with the big exception of elven medium/heavy armor, which has a very low dex penalty.

You can get decent defense in medium armor through dexterity, but it'll be less than you could get through dex in light or int in heavy.
Psyentific wrote:What do the Armor skills influence? Is there any point to putting trains in them past 100% for armor unlocks? Would 250% Medium Armor provide me with higher def from the same armor? Would it raise the dex cap on the armor, indirectly allowing for a higher def?
Armor skill increases defense. Higher skill = higher def.
Psyentific wrote:How powerful are Passive Defenses? Would trains in Parry, Block, or Dodge be better spent elsewhere (Hammer or Liturgy, for example?) - Would you consider passive defense skills top priority (Always-Gold), second priority (Important), or low priority (Spare points only past 100)?
Pretty powerful. I normally don't take them past 90 trains, but it's almost never worth dropping them to spare points. As for whether or not points would be better off in Hammer or Lit, that would depend entirely on the specifics of your build.
Psyentific wrote:What's the ratio on Toughness and Athletics, for % to HP and % to Stam respectively? Eyeballing it, how much HP would 100% Toughness get me?
I should probably know this, but I don't. I believe toughness increases HP by a percentage of base con. Someone that plays a lot of meat could tell you more.
Psyentific wrote:What's the range on Scout Track? Morloch Wiki has Scout, Ranger, Thief, Huntsman, and Bounty Hunter all at the same track range (~1200), with Huntress having the longest track at ~1400. Is this current? How long 1200 units work out to, in-game terms? What's the "On Scroll" range, where you see combat messages and /say chatter?
1408. For comparison, max spell range is generally 120 units, so if you've played a caster that should give you some idea. From the edge of a macrozone, that's enough range to track people 1/4 of the zone in, roughly. Max visual range is something in the ballpark of 160/180 units.
Psyentific wrote:Assuming T-Stanced Humanoid Runspeed, and that the track beelines for you, from the edge of track (again, 1200), as soon as you get him on track, how much warning would you have? I'm asking more for a ballpark than anything else - You probably have a feel for it through experience.
About a minute and a half for something without running, though it normally takes a bit longer as they have to get an arrow on you and clicking around trees and such in zones eats up some time. It can vary.
Psyentific wrote:What are common classes, and what are their weaknesses? Their strengths? For example, Sentinels have nothing that isn't a PBAOE, and I know for a fact that my dual-sword Ranger has next to no ranged attacks, and no AoE; However, in melee range it takes things apart. What's the analogous strengths and weaknesses on Druids? Barbarians? Crusaders? Huntresses? Insert-Common-Class-Here?
Right now? Scout, thief, templar, huntress, druid. You'll want something that can hit high defense reliably.
Psyentific wrote:Why do I see next to no Furies, Channelers, Doomsayers, Wizards in the field? Why have I never once seen a Necromancer? Does that have to do with the class's ability to solo, or is it something else? If I had to hazard a guess, it'd be that Healers and Mages don't get access to Track disciplines or not-Skah! stealth, so they have no situational awareness or engagement control.
No track. Also right now spells are casting a lot slower than they should, which really hurts mages like Wizards which normally are fairly popular even without track.
Psyentific wrote:In solo/smallgroup PvP, what're your primary factors in deciding whether or not to engage? Numbers? Levels? Class matchups? Class & Race Combination (That is, estimating the builds)?
All of the above.

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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Psyentific » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:10 am

Dex penalties actually come from a hidden attribute of armor called "encumbrance", not armor weight which is visible. I don't know of any formula that's publicly available, but since the armor patch the rule of thumb is the lowest penalties are on class armor, slightly higher penalties on racial/discipline armor, and the highest penalties on generic armor, with the big exception of elven medium/heavy armor, which has a very low dex penalty.

You can get decent defense in medium armor through dexterity, but it'll be less than you could get through dex in light or int in heavy.
Int in Heavy? Explain please? I wasn't aware Int had any effect on Def.

How high is high defense? What ATR should I be aiming for @ L75? Can you give me numbers for bare minimum, average, and more-than-enough?
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by unfringed » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:16 am

It doesn't directly raise defense, but heavy armor has the highest base defense figures which means it gets the most out of investment in its armor skill. In other words, a heavy armor user gets more defense out of 1 point in heavy armor than a light armor user would get out of 1 point in LA. Higher int means a higher base armor skill (and higher base skills all around, which means more defense through weapon skill, block, etc) and increases the number of points you can put into HA. And since basically all defensive HA users are casters it also increases DPS. You'll also find some MA users raising defense through int, like deflocks.

High armor skill is basically the only way someone can get high defense through HA, since its dex penalty is far too high to use dex to increase defense.

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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Psyentific » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:51 am

Ah, so it raises it indirectly. That makes a lot more sense.

I don't see a lot of humans around - Is the 58 extra trains generally not worth the stat hit? I mean, compared to Aelfborn and assuming equivalent in-game runes, a human will always have lower Dex or Int, and compared to a Neph a human will always have lower Strength and Int. Since characters tend to focus on two stats, and since humans have no racial ability and average stats across the board, is going Human ever really worth it when you can not? Off the top of your head, is there anything you can think of that would benefit from 58 trains more than racial abilities and higher stats?

Because it looks to me like an Aelfborn Scout will out-scout a Human Scout, a Half Giant Warrior will out-meat a Human Warrior, and an Elf Wizard will out-cast a Human mage - The selling point is generalization in a system that favors specialization, and they tried to make up for that with Bloodlines and Trains.
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by flyredguy » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:10 am

Psyentific wrote:Ah, so it raises it indirectly. That makes a lot more sense.

I don't see a lot of humans around - Is the 58 extra trains generally not worth the stat hit? I mean, compared to Aelfborn and assuming equivalent in-game runes, a human will always have lower Dex or Int, and compared to a Neph a human will always have lower Strength and Int. Since characters tend to focus on two stats, and since humans have no racial ability and average stats across the board, is going Human ever really worth it when you can not? Off the top of your head, is there anything you can think of that would benefit from 58 trains more than racial abilities and higher stats?

Because it looks to me like an Aelfborn Scout will out-scout a Human Scout, a Half Giant Warrior will out-meat a Human Warrior, and an Elf Wizard will out-cast a Human mage - The selling point is generalization in a system that favors specialization, and they tried to make up for that with Bloodlines and Trains.
i go human on my ranger generally although i like my aelf version as well. confessors have to be human. deflars (high defense tempars) are generally human. Half giants are usually better for pvp though but they wont have the trains to have high defense if they want to train all the templar goodies. im sure i use human on other things just cant think of them atm

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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Amaz » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:19 pm

Dex penalties actually come from a hidden attribute of armor called "encumbrance", not armor weight which is visible. I don't know of any formula that's publicly available,
There is no formula, its a big lookup table for each armour piece sad to say.
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Psyentific » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:34 pm

Amaz wrote:
Dex penalties actually come from a hidden attribute of armor called "encumbrance", not armor weight which is visible. I don't know of any formula that's publicly available,
There is no formula, its a big lookup table for each armour piece sad to say.
Any chance of that going on the Wiki?
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Phylor » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:54 pm

Psyentific wrote:
Amaz wrote:
Dex penalties actually come from a hidden attribute of armor called "encumbrance", not armor weight which is visible. I don't know of any formula that's publicly available,
There is no formula, its a big lookup table for each armour piece sad to say.
Any chance of that going on the Wiki?
Sadly the table is stored within the client(Richv said this) and I am not sure that there is actually a way to access it. The old Rivkah's notes are semi accurate still but they ahve changed some since the reorginization of class restrictions on gear and the baked in stats.
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Mantis » Sun May 04, 2014 2:17 pm

Psyentific wrote: In solo/smallgroup PvP, what're your primary factors in deciding whether or not to engage? Numbers? Levels? Class matchups? Class & Race Combination (That is, estimating the builds)?
Always engage! Even when death is certain, you may still be able to take out a toon or too. It's more fun that way, and I think it will help you learn a lot, too. It's easy to spend a lot of time in this game avoiding fights, even when losing doesn't have any real penalties. You'll be better off taking risks than avoiding them. Now, if they have 2 full groups of spec toons for mines or something, you may need to be a bit more choosy, but in most cases I suggest to give it a try.

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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Vandarr » Wed May 07, 2014 8:43 am

Mantis wrote:
Psyentific wrote: In solo/smallgroup PvP, what're your primary factors in deciding whether or not to engage? Numbers? Levels? Class matchups? Class & Race Combination (That is, estimating the builds)?
Always engage! Even when death is certain, you may still be able to take out a toon or too. It's more fun that way, and I think it will help you learn a lot, too. It's easy to spend a lot of time in this game avoiding fights, even when losing doesn't have any real penalties. You'll be better off taking risks than avoiding them. Now, if they have 2 full groups of spec toons for mines or something, you may need to be a bit more choosy, but in most cases I suggest to give it a try.
This is the absolute best advice you will get for this game, excluding that of making sure you join a guild.

On another note, I thoroughly enjoy playing human scouts - the extra trains allow you to be more flexible with disc options.
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Loogie » Wed May 21, 2014 11:30 am

Wait a sec, I thought Huntress, Ranger and Scout track were all the same long range? Isn't it only Bounty Hunter and Huntsman that have small track?
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Amaz » Wed May 21, 2014 12:05 pm

Scout and Huntress are 1408 range (10% longer), all other tracks are 1280 range.

Scout, Huntress and Ranger get 40 target track windows, everyone else gets 20 target windows.
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Psyentific » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:16 am

Are passive defenses worth sinking trains into?
To rephrase the question, in general, would I be better off golding my armor skill or my passive defense skill?
How do Block, Parry, and Dodge compare to each other? Is it possible to get all three on a single character?
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by longblade » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:31 pm

Block stops melee and ranged melee attacks. A shield must be equipped to use. There are enchantments that increase a shield's chance to block
Parry stops melee attacks. Parry is increased slightly by using two weapons or 2h weapons
Dodge stops melee and ranged melee, as well as spells at 25% of its regular efficiency

Fighters gain access to Parry and Block
Healers gain access to Block
Rogues gain access to Dodge; Thieves are the only rogues who have access to both dodge and parry
Mages have no passive defense

Passive defense will cause a % of attacks to miss.
Resists from armor reduce damage when a character is hit. It is very effective if getting hit with a damage type that matches the resist. A most, 75% of damage can be reduced.
Defense makes it harder for someone to hit the character. However if their ATR is higher your defense, then defense becomes almost useless.

Different builds use different combinations of the three types of defenses. it is part of what makes a build. No one defense is fool proof.
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by h338154 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:09 pm

In terms of Def v.s Passive D I think it's important to note that with the number of weapon powers and blinds available Def is a bit easier to nullify than Passive D, as there are only a certain number of powers that grant a passive D null; although I believe I heard that a stun prevents passive D from doing its job, so as you were sitting stunned unable to block, a high defense would be your only chance to avoid incoming damage. The ability to possibly dodge a spell I find makes it, when available, slightly better than blocking or parrying out right, and though I have never been one to invest much into parry, if it's your only available passive defense its worth training in most circumstances.

As a side note I believe that unless you plan on making your toon high d its not usually worth training armor over 100%; though Im sure people could disagree on any or all of these points =D

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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Psyentific » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:32 am

Defense is primarily off of Dexterity, right? Would it be viable to shoot for 2k+ defense on a heavy armor 'toon? Is a Shield's defense rating affected by Block, some other skill, or is it a flat bonus?
My understanding is that, generally, you take Dex/LA and defbuild, you take con/HA and tank with resists and EHP, or you ignore tanking altogether in favor of damage. Likewise, going for defense and going for resists are somewhat mutually exclusive; heavy armor has resists, but kills dex, and light armor has dex but no resists. Medium armor, then, would really only be used if you don't have access to heavy armor or aren't going for high defense. Am I missing anything?
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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by h338154 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:32 pm

I'm not really sure as to how high a HA toon can get Def but if they were to try the HA takes some from Str but would depend I believe more heavily on the number of trains into HA, which can be increased by spiking intelligence. I don't think many people would try to make a MA def toon (unless they were using some kind of racial armor like Elf MA or maybe Aracoix MA.) The resists from MA are higher than LA (obvi) so if you had access to both it would depend on your wanting to go with higher resists or def. I think it's important to keep in mind what kind of weapon you are using. If your looking to use a Bow for instance, going HA will limit its effectiveness compared to going LA or Cloth even, whereas wearing HA or MA and using a Str weapon won't have as great an impact on your ability to wield it.

That's not to say you can't get decent resists on a defense toon, but in Shadowbane more than many other games its harder to do lots of things well and usually more prudent to specialize in a specific area.

I believe the def from a shield is a set amount unaffected by trains into block, as those trains would increase your opportunity to block, not the defense that is given from a shield.


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Re: General Questions - Attributes, Skills, & Gitting Gud

Post by Psyentific » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:34 pm

Handy link, thanks Longblade.
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