Spirit

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Illuminus
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Spirit

Post by Illuminus » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:47 pm

Now that restoration scales 100% from spirit. How should I balance int vs. spirit?
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Sek
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Re: Spirit

Post by Sek » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:06 am

Illuminus wrote:Now that restoration scales 100% from spirit. How should I balance int vs. spirit?
On what toon?
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Illuminus
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Re: Spirit

Post by Illuminus » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:50 am

Well, I figure any toon where you Restoration is your primary focus, basically with all the new support skill coming in for Healer classes, I want to min/max the int/spr ratio.

I guess my question is at point does it become more efficient to put points into spirit vs double/triple training for raw % value right? Or is this a just a straight nerf to healing altogether?

Channelers, Crusaders, Doomsayers, Druids, and Prelates have all gotten some pretty serious buff to the restoration/utility part of their class and I was just trying to figure out how to build one.
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Adron
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Re: Spirit

Post by Adron » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:22 pm

It gets tricky, because int is still the primary stat on many other focus skills on a healer... hammer, benediction, liturgy (or channeling etc), block, LA/MA/HA. Plus, the limits on trains you can use in a skill is still int on those.
In theory, you shouldn't go with a high spirit creation build, because you can just add in the spirit boost via items later, and the higher int will be better on your character than through items. BUT...if you're planning on taking resist items, you'll not get that spirit boost later for restoration purposes... So yeah...think carefully.
Right now i'm just not spiking either of them, and doing the math and making sure i have stat space to use all my points (which you don't on a few races unless you spike one) between spirit, int, and con. If you're going priest, it's a no brainer, go spirit. On a class that's stuck with blessed mending (confessor), the higher mana cost almost necessitates going high spirit too.
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Re: Spirit

Post by Mantis » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:15 am

Illuminus wrote:Now that restoration scales 100% from spirit. How should I balance int vs. spirit?
Since this is a super new change, I don't think anyone knows for sure how to deal with it yet. Luckily we have a test server to test out different healer builds. As for my opinion, I still think con/int is king, but I'd be more liable to take spirit to like 60 on some builds. Making restoration spirit based isn't that big of a deal--just spike int and use dump all the trains you save into resto. Priests are a different issue, ofc.

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Re: Spirit

Post by tooshifty » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:17 am

rip int priests.

I think restoration scales off spirit, but the heal is effected by int. So in builds that never had high restoration, while stacking int, will have only slightly weaker heals. Heavy spirit based toons with high restoration will heal like monsters...but will suffer massive dps reduction.

Roll a centaur max spirit druid and let us know how that works out.
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Skyslayer630
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Re: Spirit

Post by Skyslayer630 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:55 am

I had a cent priest with 100 points ready to go. So I added points to int and spirit and watched my divine recovery tooltip as I did so. Int and spirit both increased the actual average amount healed by about the same amount. The way it raises the values is different but in the end it works out to nearly the same average. I plan on rolling a pair of priests so I give some exact numbers, but for now take note that Int definitely still has value on a priest.

Edit: hell since I have like 2 mill on him I guess I'll just use the refiner to test it lol.

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Re: Spirit

Post by Sek » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:48 am

Skyslayer630 wrote:I had a cent priest with 100 points ready to go. So I added points to int and spirit and watched my divine recovery tooltip as I did so. Int and spirit both increased the actual average amount healed by about the same amount. The way it raises the values is different but in the end it works out to nearly the same average. I plan on rolling a pair of priests so I give some exact numbers, but for now take note that Int definitely still has value on a priest.
If what you say is true, then INT doesn`t really have any value on a priest any more.
If you can get same amount of healing with a point into SPR as a with a point into INT, why not just put everything above 60 into SPR and make a HUUUGE mana pool?
The only "reason" not to do it is to save a handful of trains, and to get a slightly higher ATR on the stun, LOL.
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Re: Spirit

Post by Skyslayer630 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:48 pm

Ok I have some hard data here:

Image

Notes:

1. Both priests had restoration trained to the exact same level. Obviously this benefits the SPI priest more since it required less tp spent to get to that level (restoration goes up as you increase spirit).

2. I invested the same number of stat points into INT for the int priest as I did SPI for the spirit priest. So both toons had +55 added to their chosen stat and 0 points added to the other stat. This also favors INT, since cent healers start with 50 SPI and only 30 INT yet INT still managed to produce better results even with 20 less stat points. With all things being equal, expect an even greater advantage for INT over SPI.
Last edited by Skyslayer630 on Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spirit

Post by Sek » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:24 am

412 average TtW for INT base.
376 average TtW for SPI base.

If my math isn`t wrong (and it could be, I`m horrible at it) the difference is ~9% in the average healing.

Now let us know how much mana does one toon have, and how much does the other.
I`m already pretty certain which one I would choose...
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Re: Spirit

Post by tooshifty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:15 am

so int priests actually heal for more still? devs said spirit toons would be healing for more...whats the restoration at on those tests?

and perhaps you should retest with restoration maxed on both toons.
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Re: Spirit

Post by Skyslayer630 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:01 am

Restoration was taken to 80.

I think the main takeaway for all this is that both int and spi help almost equally, which means you no longer need to waste costly int runes on your heal priests since you get almost the same power from spirit. And of course you get more mana too. So, if anything, I'd expect a pretty even distribution between int, spi, and con, with no runes spent. It's going to make for much cheaper builds.

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Re: Spirit

Post by tooshifty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:47 am

Skyslayer630 wrote:Ok I have some hard data here:

[ Image ]

Notes:

1. Both priests had restoration trained to the exact same level. Obviously this benefits the INT priest more since it required less tp spent to get to that level.

2. I invested the same number of stat points into INT for the int priest as I did SPI for the spirit priest. So both toons had +55 added to their chosen stat and 0 points added to the other stat. This also favors INT, since cent healers start with 50 SPI and only 30 INT yet INT still managed to produce better results even with 20 less stat points. With all things being equal, expect an even greater advantage for INT over SPI.
i feel like this is a troll
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Re: Spirit

Post by Skyslayer630 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:08 pm

So are you saying I just made up those numbers and/or faked a couple screenshots even though anyone can run the same test and see for themselves? It only takes about 10 minutes...

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Re: Spirit

Post by Skyslayer630 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:14 pm

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Ok so this time I made each priest exactly the same in every possible way. They both have 90 restoration (Restoration = 90). One has 120 int / 35 spi, the other has 120 spi / 35 int. Both have only conc buffs and off stance.

The spi priest has about 12 more extra tp due to restoration being spirit based. The int priest has 13.2% increase in average hp/sec.
Last edited by Skyslayer630 on Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Illuminus
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Re: Spirit

Post by Illuminus » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:45 pm

Just another thing to consider:

From Morloch wiki:
Points Spent to Train
First 10 trains = 1 train for 2%
Past 10 trains = 1 train for 1%
Past 90 trains = 2 trains for 1%
Past 134 trains = 3 trains for 1%
Partial % does not register in formulas, ex. you gain no benefit for having 91 trains in a skill as it is the same % as 90

It also takes 134 int to get past 134 trains.

So, I'm thinking maybe a soft-cap of 134 int?
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Re: Spirit

Post by tooshifty » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:27 am

Skyslayer630 wrote:So are you saying I just made up those numbers and/or faked a couple screenshots even though anyone can run the same test and see for themselves? It only takes about 10 minutes...
i say it because you did the test with 3 trains in your heal and with restoration at 80.

also im sure your total spirit was low as well. all in all you are not taking modifiers high enough to give a good comparison. You just scrapped the min it looks like.
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Auld
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Re: Spirit

Post by Auld » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:59 am

Skyslayer630 wrote:Ok I have some hard data here:

[ Image ]

Notes:

1. Both priests had restoration trained to the exact same level. Obviously this benefits the SPI priest more since it required less tp spent to get to that level (restoration goes up as you increase spirit).

2. I invested the same number of stat points into INT for the int priest as I did SPI for the spirit priest. So both toons had +55 added to their chosen stat and 0 points added to the other stat. This also favors INT, since cent healers start with 50 SPI and only 30 INT yet INT still managed to produce better results even with 20 less stat points. With all things being equal, expect an even greater advantage for INT over SPI.
Thanks, I saw similar results, top end heals on int priest were higher, low end heals on the spi was higher. Big difference was in mana pool. I had to be very careful during a bane because I was running low on mana all the time. Pulling away and hitting a mana pot would work but it was stressful to have to pay so much attention to my mana. (I choose Druid healers for my test and not sure I did as good of a job equalizing all stats for comparison, but my results were similar.) Can post those here is anyone is interested.
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Re: Spirit

Post by Auld » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:44 pm

Details: Centaur, Healer, Druid

SPI Build:
STR 40; DEX 20; CON 155; INT 75; SPI 120

WITH GEAR NO BUFFS (12/12 HR HOOD, RINGS; CHARMED +6/+10 FPC, SEPT +6/+25 HOLY) +4/5 LA
STR 52; DEX 33; CON 229; INT 99; SPI 132
Health: 3168
Mana: 1365
Rest 134%

Breath of Spring: 53-102
Braillia's Kiss: 53-102
Regrowth: 128-246; 42-123
Prayer of Mending: 154-344
Blessed Healing: 240-328

INT Build:
STR 40; DEX 20; CON 155; INT 145; SPI 57

WITH GEAR NO BUFFS (12/12 HR HOOD, RING; 12 CON/12 INT +MR RING, CHARMED +6/+10 FPC, SEPT +6/+25 HOLY) +4/5 LA
STR 52; DEX 33; CON 229; INT 169; SPI 69
Health: 3168
Mana: 939
Rest: 115%

Breath of Spring: 48-116
Braillia's Kiss: 48-116
Regrowth: 116-279; 38-139
Prayer of Mending: 139-391
Blessed Healing: 216-373

I didn't do a great job of isolating variables, but I would think you would want a minimum of 60 INT in any build, I added maybe a litte more than was necessary to my SPI build. Not having to take the 2 int runes at start up gives you the ability to take helpful runes like Tough Hide (resists). Having the deeper mana pool is really great during long fights. The difference in heals is not that great.
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Re: Spirit

Post by tooshifty » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:24 am

if you want a spir based toon...id say 80int is spot on. And really give the spirit.....like 150base at least with +40 from jewels and hood to boot. Even last patch my spirit priest had stacked spirit and jewelz but still 4khp.
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