The Barbaric Problem

ManAgainstTime
10v10 Champion
10v10 Champion
Posts: 2256
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:16 pm

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by ManAgainstTime » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:49 pm

Add a stackable melee damage buff to rage. Whooo!

Haudrauf
Snobo Seer
Snobo Seer
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:01 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Haudrauf » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:59 am

agreed that scouts dont need a boost.

and in most situations a barb should use the rage as a heal, not at the beginning. anyway, the heal is nice, the better dmg output also, but it wont make up for less dps/survivability compared to other melee classes.
ManAgainstTime wrote:Add a stackable melee damage buff to rage. Whooo!
never heard of commy?

BeanCurd
Snow Terror
Snow Terror
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:52 pm
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by BeanCurd » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:00 pm

Haudrauf wrote:agreed that scouts dont need a boost.

and in most situations a barb should use the rage as a heal, not at the beginning. anyway, the heal is nice, the better dmg output also, but it wont make up for less dps/survivability compared to other melee classes.
ManAgainstTime wrote:Add a stackable melee damage buff to rage. Whooo!
never heard of commy?
Im sure he has but as u see commander is a expensive rune at start up and even through out the game. I really dont think barbs are that gimped imo there still pretty powerful if played right.
Image

Cryfowl
SBE Team
SBE Team
Posts: 1218
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:26 pm

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Cryfowl » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:27 am

BeanCurd wrote:
Haudrauf wrote:agreed that scouts dont need a boost.

and in most situations a barb should use the rage as a heal, not at the beginning. anyway, the heal is nice, the better dmg output also, but it wont make up for less dps/survivability compared to other melee classes.
ManAgainstTime wrote:Add a stackable melee damage buff to rage. Whooo!
never heard of commy?
Im sure he has but as u see commander is a expensive rune at start up and even through out the game. I really dont think barbs are that gimped imo there still pretty powerful if played right.

Am i reding this right>? The barb class should be changed because commy is expensive ? LOL
*** DEMOLITIONS EXPERT *** LOOKING FOR GROUP *** GOOD WITH WALLS ***
Image

aeroch
SBE Team
SBE Team
Posts: 3050
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:04 pm
Contact:

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by aeroch » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:38 pm

ambi at promotion?

BeanCurd
Snow Terror
Snow Terror
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:52 pm
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by BeanCurd » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:12 pm

Cryfowl wrote:
BeanCurd wrote:
Haudrauf wrote:agreed that scouts dont need a boost.

and in most situations a barb should use the rage as a heal, not at the beginning. anyway, the heal is nice, the better dmg output also, but it wont make up for less dps/survivability compared to other melee classes.

never heard of commy?
Im sure he has but as u see commander is a expensive rune at start up and even through out the game. I really dont think barbs are that gimped imo there still pretty powerful if played right.

Am i reding this right>? The barb class should be changed because commy is expensive ? LOL
Na u read it wrong im saying there not gimped clearly stated. I find that barbs have there own advantages.
Image

Zergs
Icy Troll
Icy Troll
Posts: 800
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:06 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Zergs » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:16 am

The only change I would make to barbs is to switch throwing PRs with warrior's. They should be better at it IMO. Also last stormlord changes that were to reduce the number of dorf chuckers also almost completely removed the need for barbs in throwing department.

Apollyon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:00 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Apollyon » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:36 pm

It would be nice if people stopped talking about buffing Werebear to make Barbs better, considering that Warr would still do it better than Barb.

Have a nice little class skill swap--give Barb Crippling Blow, give Thief Vengeance. Both classes are now closer to balance.

Skullsplitter
Snobo Seer
Snobo Seer
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Skullsplitter » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:53 pm

Apollyon wrote:It would be nice if people stopped talking about buffing Werebear to make Barbs better, considering that Warr would still do it better than Barb.

Have a nice little class skill swap--give Barb Crippling Blow, give Thief Vengeance. Both classes are now closer to balance.
That's a damn good idea. +1

Would help out non backstabbing rogue-barbs and would open up a lot more Gh and Sword barbs as a result.

People may complain about Gs barbs being op though. Yes they still would have a shitty expose, but def debuff, plus stacking -50 str dex, with sword -60 str dex. It probably would be a fotm type char. Even though warriors still get dk blind, plus better styles (expose), single target stun and Ha. People would be in uproar with a buff like this to barbs.

A cool down timer would have to be added cause currently it's insta cast and no recycle.
Image

Apollyon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:00 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Apollyon » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:06 pm

CB is a ridiculous skill no matter who is using it. Anyways, lorewise it makes more sense in both scenarios for a skill swap. Class-wise, Barbs need a Def cut far more than a Thief ever would, considering that they have access to GM PStance and CG. IMO this singular change would put Barbs precisely where they need to be, without pushing them over the edge at all. Heavy armor and the awesome WP that PA gets access to are pretty tough to counter, no matter how you look at it. Versus Def toons, you're looking at having no choice but GA if you want a continuous Def cut, assuming a CD is added. Aside from lowering Block rates, fights vs casters would be completely unaffected.

Keep the 30s duration, bump recycle to 2min. GS with this would indeed by very strong, and may need its own attention.

Logan
Snowy Harpy
Snowy Harpy
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:38 pm
Location: New Orleans

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Logan » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:20 pm

Barbs aren't supposed to have a GM def cut. That's the whole basic rationale behind their structure... High DMG, high hp, lower atr. You can hit high def targets but you have to make some sacrifices.

You're arguing that Barbs can't compete w/ Warriors. It's not because of their atr it's that their DMG doesn't make up for their lack of HA...

Max con hammer barbs are supposed to struggle against high def! The trade off is you get a bunch of stuns, pbs and less resistant enemies.
Image

Apollyon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:00 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Apollyon » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:42 pm

Logan wrote:Barbs aren't supposed to have a GM def cut. That's the whole basic rationale behind their structure... High DMG, high hp, lower atr. You can hit high def targets but you have to make some sacrifices.

You're arguing that Barbs can't compete w/ Warriors. It's not because of their atr it's that their DMG doesn't make up for their lack of HA...

Max con hammer barbs are supposed to struggle against high def! The trade off is you get a bunch of stuns, pbs and less resistant enemies.
Go take a look here:
http://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/i ... e=Pole_Arm
http://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/i ... rm_Mastery

Warr gets:
-GM Def Cut
-GM Stun
-GM PB
-GM expose to Pierce/Slash/Crush
(AKA everything you just listed + Def cut)

Add that onto having HA, GM O and P stances, GM base weap powers over JM, and access to Blind via DK.

Warr is a stronger choice than Barb against each other and against other spec groups, and is much more viable as a solo ganking or dueling toon. The suggested change would leave them at least in a position to be viable open field in the Thief/Scout metagame, would give them an edge when fighting Warr meat groups through the Str/Dex cut, and would have literally no effect against caster groups (outside of Deflocks). AKA, it would give them help in the areas that they need it, while not buffing them against classes that they don't have any problems with.

Skullsplitter
Snobo Seer
Snobo Seer
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Skullsplitter » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:12 pm

Some Idea's that have been thrown out here. Some better than others some not thought out, but were fleshing it out one by one.

Here's the update so far

1.Removing Vengeance and replacing it with 40-60 sec Ignore passive defense power 120-180 sec cd.

2.Removing Vengeance and adding 25% Stacking damage and 25% atr self buff only (possibly just a 25% stacking damage buff only)

3.Making rage 5 min long with 10 min cool down.

4. Increase throwing powers to gm possibly? grant ambi at promotion

5. increase weapon powers and stances

6. Make wereforms not break on anything and maybe add some damage buff to wereform to = knight's buff

7. Swap thieves crippling blow with vengeance from barbs.



My personal favorite from the bunch is number 3 with number 2 being a close second.

I think rage being a "class" definining power should be maintained for at least half the time. Outside of it templars and warriors pretty much do everything much better.
It also is inline with the description of a barb. That being the heaviest hitting high hp blood-thirsty rape machine that they are. I think though to make this viable the 30% power cost would have to be reduced to 15% or add a bigger stam heal.


Number 2 for the reason that I agree with siren about barb's being pure offensive tanks. In order for this to happen they need to be able to dish out the most damage. As pointed out before if this is implemented on a small scale level barbs run a 55% damage chant when you include commander which is only 5% better dps than a templar. In gvg it gives barbs 25% more damage than warriors with bard buff included. But I realize this may be to great of a boost since 25% more damage in gvg is quite a bit coupled with rage and that may be just way to much to be giving them.


Other ideas I liked was the swapping of the crippling blow since it is such a simple fix and gives barbs a big enough boost where people will not ultimately just default to warriors. However I think this makes them to similar to warriors in a sense.


The ambi thing is cool, but current state of throwing is awful and on a personal biased level barbs to me are 2h wielding brutes.


Awesome discussion guys thanks everyone for their contribution whether in favor or against. Let's keep working on this!!!
Image

Apollyon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:00 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Apollyon » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:45 pm

While part of me very much likes the idea of upping Barb DPS as the solution, the more cautious half reminds me that meat is already the #1 most common spec group, and is heavily favored by almost all guilds. Making Barbs stronger as a whole only keeps the current metagame intact with a different prof at the helm. Keep in mind that whatever changes are considered, the consequences must also be weighed out very carefully.

I would love to see as many classes as possible brought into the realm of being "balanced" (I use this word loosely), including Barb. What I would not like to see is Barb simply switching places with Warr as top dog, because that would be every bit as stagnant as the game as is.

Skullsplitter
Snobo Seer
Snobo Seer
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Skullsplitter » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:51 pm

Agreed. I don't want barb to be fotm. Just something that makes them a specific choice for a specific kind of player.

I missed the last 2 years of sb maybe 1.5, but when I left it was still very much caster stacks dominating banes with thrower specs just starting to reach popularity. As someone who loves melee's I can't say that im in a huge hurry to switch it back to magebane. I know though in due time all good things come to an end! :)
Image

Skullsplitter
Snobo Seer
Snobo Seer
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Skullsplitter » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:06 pm

How's this take out vengeance and replace it with Torvald's Might

+165 atr at gm
+250 stam

and add like 3-5 75% and 100% barb only weapon powers no atr boost just damage boost and some general buffs like damage debuff, slash expose, crush expose
Image

Fugger
Snow Terror
Snow Terror
Posts: 1111
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:34 pm

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Fugger » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:21 pm

Barbs are fine. They dominated SB for most of it's existence. The problem isn't with barbs, it's with the surplus of shit that was given to warriors.

Namosa
5v5 Champion
5v5 Champion
Posts: 1073
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:34 pm

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Namosa » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:18 pm

Give barbs access to DK.

Problem solved.
Image


SB Character Creator
EXCEL http://www.tinyurl.com/sbcharcreator
Open Office http://tinyurl.com/sbcharcreator-OO

Shadowbane client DL (PW: shadowbane)
Direct Download

Sturgeon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:25 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Sturgeon » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:45 am

barbarians are

Sturgeon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:25 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Sturgeon » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:45 am

simply put

Sturgeon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:25 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Sturgeon » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:46 am

just not

Sturgeon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:25 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Sturgeon » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:46 am

very good

Sturgeon
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:25 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Sturgeon » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:46 am

theyre bad

Braxis
Icy Troll
Icy Troll
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:26 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Braxis » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:59 pm

You guys are all crazy. I ran with a cent ga barb for years. Same build, same gear, always played it the same. Never had any problems with a rogue, at least not alone. 2 or more gave me some trouble.

First of all, I use rage just like a heal. Take them down as far as you can until you are about to die, hit rage, and start all over again

Another more important factor is build, maybe some of you are simply just not building your barb right. Try more balance

and less RAWR factor.

And of course there's gear. MA SUCKS but use the right resists and you should last long enough to mollywhomp anything that doesn't fly.

Oh, and you don't have to base around regen, but the hr on 24 con jewels goes a long way.

I'm not saying any of you are wrong, just that I love the class and never have trouble with it. Of course there's something that counteracts every toon. But if you're good enough, you can stand out among the rest.
Image

Telemakus
Chilled Zombie
Chilled Zombie
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:10 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Telemakus » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:22 pm

Braxis wrote:You guys are all crazy. I ran with a cent ga barb for years. Same build, same gear, always played it the same. Never had any problems with a rogue, at least not alone. 2 or more gave me some trouble.

First of all, I use rage just like a heal. Take them down as far as you can until you are about to die, hit rage, and start all over again

Another more important factor is build, maybe some of you are simply just not building your barb right. Try more balance

and less RAWR factor.

And of course there's gear. MA SUCKS but use the right resists and you should last long enough to mollywhomp anything that doesn't fly.

Oh, and you don't have to base around regen, but the hr on 24 con jewels goes a long way.

I'm not saying any of you are wrong, just that I love the class and never have trouble with it. Of course there's something that counteracts every toon. But if you're good enough, you can stand out among the rest.

/agree. Barbs don't need an extra def cut. If you are so obsessed with being able to hit high def, go valkyr or werebear. HG barbs can hit 1400 atr easily enough, use gladiator def cut and p stance you'll be fine.
You can run, but you'll die tired.

Braxis
Icy Troll
Icy Troll
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:26 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by Braxis » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:33 am

Ya, hitting high def doesn't really matter in gvg. As a matter of fact, it doesn't matter in 1v1 either, I mean, it takes a while for a rogue to burn through 10k+ hp. So if you run out of stam or something, there's enough time to evac or simply hit rage and run home lol.
Image

jzl001
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:54 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by jzl001 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:34 am

Image

:lol: :lol:

jzl001
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:54 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by jzl001 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:34 am

Image

:lol: :lol:

jzl001
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:54 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by jzl001 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:34 am

Image

:lol: :lol:

jzl001
Snobo
Snobo
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:54 am

Re: The Barbaric Problem

Post by jzl001 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:36 am

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Post Reply

Return to “Barbarian, Savage of the Northlands”