Bard Build: This IS bad and unviable. Don't make it.

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What do you think about this build?

It's stupid
3
60%
It's alright
0
No votes
It's awesome
1
20%
It made me cum
0
No votes
BBIIRRDDSS
1
20%
 
Total votes: 5

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Bard Build: This IS bad and unviable. Don't make it.

Post by Sinever » Mon May 04, 2015 8:44 pm

Yo. I like bards. They feel cool and have lots of toys to play with. So, that being said, here is probably the worst build you've ever seen. Probably. I haven't even played enough to know that it's 'bad' much less 'good'. If someone has the build-making skills to do so, I'd appreciate it if someone were to optimize this whilst keeping the general feel. Without further ado, here it is:
EDIT: I'm a casual, guys. Believe it or not, we exist. So no, I don't intend for this to be competitive. This is a for-fun build. Extra points if you guys can help me make it as viable of a fun build as possible.

Race: Aracoix (birds 'r cool)
Base class: Rogue
Prestige class: Bard
Level: 75
Stat Points Remaining: 0
Training Points Remaining: 0

Starter traits:
-Warlord's Page
-Proficient with Spears (to start with spears without having to wait for wyrm drop)
-Tough as Nails (for the extra regen bonus since str and not dex)

Applied Runes:
-Legendary Strength
-Legendary Constitution
-Wyrmslayer (for spear mastery and the related spear skill)
-Huntsman (track)
-Black Mask (backstabs *Cryfowl)
-Skydancer (stackable buffs *Cryfowl)

End stats:
-150 Strength (capped)
-150 Constitution (capped)
-40 Intelligence (rest of points)
-50 Dexterity (no points)
-10 Spirit (no points)

Skills:
-120% Spear (75 trains)
-100% Dodge (75 trains)
-97% Bardsong (75 trains)
-97% Spear M. (62 trains)

Powers (only trains listed):
-40 Ritardando (for catching runners)
-40 Gentle Melody (for the passive healing)
-40 Restive Melody (for stam regen so i can skill all day long)
-40 Ragnor's Rede of Rending (i'll need all the damage i can get)
-40 The Rhythem of Steel (just for more damage)
-40 Song of Warding (i gotta have 'some' damage mitigation :l)
-40 Chant of the Titants (stackable str/dex, apparently? *Cryfowl)
-20 Moito Ritardando (lowered from 40 to 20 to make room for TD and WSD)
-20 Talon Dance (stackable att, apparently? *Cryfowl)
-20 Will of the Sky Dancer (stackable con, apparently? *Cryfowl)
-1 Might Countersong (i didn't see a reason to raise this above 1?)

And there you have it folks. The possibly worst build you've ever seen. Just a couple things: 1) I plan on using cloth armor (stylebane is real, folks) and gearing for con/health regen/health etc. 2) If you decide to be a bro and optimize this build for me, there are a couple of things it has to have to be considered part of the "This is probably bad and stupid." build - spear and cloth armor.

Thanks for humoring me. Time to play this character :l
Last edited by Sinever on Wed May 06, 2015 7:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Cryfowl » Mon May 04, 2015 9:14 pm

Ok - Let me preface that i am not a bard player however i can improve on this.

1) Wasting 10 stat points on proficient with spears is asinine. Especially since you won't have the mastery line until you get Wyrmslayer anyways. So why are you wasting 10 stat points just for the privilege of sporting a spear while you are a lowbie ? do you expect to PvP with this toon in any meaningful way before you level it out and apply Discs ? Use those 10 stat points towards Healthy as an ox or something else - any thing else.

2) so your building a Bird spear melee rogue and you don't have Blackmask for the backstabs (woks with spears BTW) OR Skydancer ???

3) So exactly how do you plan on dealing with any opponent with high Defense? Your spear weapon powers are all going to be craptastic (lvl 10 ? granted by wyrmslaey ?) and you have no viable means to def cut anything.

4) if you are seriously bent on building this (and wasting a leg con) then at least train up chant of titans -- it stacks now IIRC.

Now do yourself a huge favor and look up a build on a Bird spear Dotress and forget this abomination. I'm pretty sure even a Spirit based thief would wreck you on this.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sinever » Mon May 04, 2015 9:44 pm

I guess I should go back and add more direct disclaimers for you *cough* other, more *cough* picky folks. As for the points you brought up, Cryfowl...

1) I got Proficient with Spears because I like to have a very structured progression with my characters, and I figured it would be a pain to train some other temporary skill up to carry me to Wyrmslayer just to refine the skill points out later. Wouldn't it be easier to just take the direct route and drop the rune later than having to skirt around it? Honest question. I recall mentioning that I haven't played much and don't know much about refining or dropping runes (or if you even CAN do that)

2) I had totally forgotten about Skydancer, to be honest. I'll add that in and rework it in. Hopefully that will take care of some of the filler points I had. As for Black Mask, I just straight up dislike being sneaky sneaky, but if it would significantly improve the playability of the build, I'll work that in too.

3) What'll I do with people who have high def? I'll run or get friends, that's what. I guess you didn't catch it in my tone (that was fairly consistent throughout the post) that I'm a fairly relaxed guy; I'm not that into particulars. There's a quote somewhere about knowing what you can and can't do that would be really relative to the context here, but I'm too lazy to find it.

4) Chant of Titans stacks now? Well shit, I didn't know that - the wiki sure as hell didn't make it clear. Thanks! I'll fit that in, too.

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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Pollarixie » Mon May 04, 2015 9:54 pm

Faglord bird.

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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sinever » Mon May 04, 2015 10:05 pm

Pollarixie wrote:[fluffy bunnies] bird.
That got censored for me. Are you trying to be sexy, or racist? I can't tell :(

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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Pollarixie » Mon May 04, 2015 11:42 pm

f4gl0rd

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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by tooshifty » Tue May 05, 2015 3:14 am

It would work better as nephilim dual swords.

also consider a different race that uses bm disc - regardless of weapon choice.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sinever » Tue May 05, 2015 7:21 am

tooshifty wrote:It would work better as nephilim dual swords.

also consider a different race that uses bm disc - regardless of weapon choice.
I mentioned it earlier, but spear is one of the defining features for this build. I did think about using Nephilim, but went with Aracoix because of the more evenly distributed stat points at creation. Would it be better to drop the extra con in favor of the huge str advantage that Nephilim has over Aracoix?

I don't know that BM would well replace any of the other discs that was chosen for this build; is feint and find weakness enough to consider replacing Huntsman and its track? Track provides a huge amount of extra needed utility for this build.

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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sek » Tue May 05, 2015 9:51 am

God, that build is so bad in so many ways.
I don`t have the time to explain all of why right now (some of it is covered by Cryfowl).

IMO, just don`t make that thing unless you are hellbent on making something that nobody else have (and that is gimp as shit).

P.S. If you want to make a PvP solo bard, send me a PM or something and I`ll concoct something up for you, if you want.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by QuiteGoneJin » Tue May 05, 2015 10:53 am

You should definitely give Tenshii some build advice, neat toy you have there. right up there with his neph regen proccing ua cloth bard he brings to banes. GJ.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sinever » Tue May 05, 2015 1:59 pm

Sek wrote:God, that build is so bad in so many ways.
I don`t have the time to explain all of why right now (some of it is covered by Cryfowl).

IMO, just don`t make that thing unless you are hellbent on making something that nobody else have (and that is gimp as Skah!).

P.S. If you want to make a PvP solo bard, send me a PM or something and I`ll concoct something up for you, if you want.
You sure don't sugar coat things, do you? While I appreciate the offer for a build, I would much prefer your specific critiques on the build that you kinda bashed. I'm not gonna learn anything if I just equip a top tier build and start smashing my head into everyone else's top tier builds - I gotta know what makes good builds good (or in this case, what makes bad builds bad) and why. Just to be clear, we have to draw a line between a "flaw" and a "limitation". One can be corrected while the other has to be managed. I figured this would already be clear, but I want to make it an unanimous understanding that I do not AT ALL intend on making this build a solve-all solo or group build.

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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Cryfowl » Tue May 05, 2015 7:53 pm

Sinever wrote:
1) I got Proficient with Spears because I like to have a very structured progression with my characters, and I figured it would be a pain to train some other temporary skill up to carry me to Wyrmslayer just to refine the skill points out later. Wouldn't it be easier to just take the direct route and drop the rune later than having to skirt around it? Honest question. I recall mentioning that I haven't played much and don't know much about refining or dropping runes (or if you even CAN do that)
The point is you are spending 10 stat points at creation for a completely useless trait. If you intend to manually solo level this thing to 75 then that' admirable. I'm under the impression that you will simply PL it up and then equip it. If not - like i said it's admirable but foolish. This thing will most definitely be a royal pain in the ass to level, not to mention you won't stand a snowball's chance in hell against anyone pvp so you better know of some very remote leveling spots. If you take proficient with spears you spend 10 stat points simply for the privileged of sporting a spear at start up without wyrmslayer. That's it. you do not get the mastery, you do not get any weapon power levels (because bards don't get spear at all). And starting traits are not refinable. If you take it those 10 stat points are gone. An alternative would be put trains in sword or some other weapon and use that until you apply Wyrmslayer then refine those out in favor of spear.

Sinever wrote:2) I had totally forgotten about Skydancer, to be honest. I'll add that in and rework it in. Hopefully that will take care of some of the filler points I had. As for Black Mask, I just straight up dislike being sneaky sneaky, but if it would significantly improve the playability of the build, I'll work that in too.
Yes skydancer is pretty much a must for any bird melee toon. The DPS % bonus for 20 trains is too huge to simply give up. Blackmask would also give you a great opening attack damage wise and honestly this thing will need as much help as it can get.
Sinever wrote:3) What'll I do with people who have high def? I'll run or get friends, that's what.
there in lies your problem. so exactly what role will this toon play? You will be helpless against anything high D so it's not a solo toon. It would be a laughable waste of DPS if you brought this to any kind of group function such as a bane or mines and in case your friends won't tell you this if you tried to your guild/nation will write you off as a complete loser instantly. So that leaves what? It's a candy novelty toon and little more. If you really want to build this fine but don't ever think it'll kill anything and use it as a learning experience.
Sinever wrote:4) Chant of Titans stacks now? Well shit, I didn't know that - the wiki sure as hell didn't make it clear. Thanks! I'll fit that in, too.
IIRC better check patch notes on it though.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sek » Tue May 05, 2015 7:58 pm

Sinever wrote: You sure don't sugar coat things, do you? While I appreciate the offer for a build, I would much prefer your specific critiques on the build that you kinda bashed. I'm not gonna learn anything if I just equip a top tier build and start smashing my head into everyone else's top tier builds - I gotta know what makes good builds good (or in this case, what makes bad builds bad) and why. Just to be clear, we have to draw a line between a "flaw" and a "limitation". One can be corrected while the other has to be managed. I figured this would already be clear, but I want to make it an unanimous understanding that I do not AT ALL intend on making this build a solve-all solo or group build.
Ok, I`ll try to do this as quickly as possible (I might give up on the way though).

1) Why use spear? That is a horrible choice as a bard. You get NO weapon powers, at all. Use something else.
2) If you are already dead set on going with a spear, you should probably try and make some use of the cold DoT Wyrmslayer gives you. To do that, you could have went high int, and for somekind of a proccing build (bards make good proccers, and spear is the "best" 2 hander for proccing). However, you went STR/CON.
3) By going STR/CON you have also indirectly reduced your survivability. As an Aracoix bard one of your best bets to obtain longevity is to make use of Savant`s heal over time, and Runecaster`s heal. Both of those require relatively high INT to be efficient. You just shoot yourself in the foot there.
4) Another thing you could do for your survivability is to go high def. Since you are a rogue, and the highest resist armor you can get is LA, that is generally a good idea. But you went STR/CON, so no budge there.
5) Going for a regen build is kinda ok, but it`s not that great. You will never have the regen of rangers and hunties, or Nephs for that matter. Also your resist spread will be atrocius, and most meat toons will rip you apart if they get to you.
6) You don`t have Countersong anywhere in there. NEVER make a bard without Countersong.
7) I`m not sure if I`m reading that template right, but it looks like you are planning to leave INT at 40 (with maybe a few leftover points). INT is generally always taken to 60, so you can get 90 trains in focus line that are important to you. If you already knew that, and was planning for that, disregard this.

That is all, for now.

TD;DR:
Just don`t make that thing.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by cashmoneyflow » Tue May 05, 2015 10:32 pm

Just so you guys can stop while you are ahead. You are getting trolled so hard.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by tooshifty » Wed May 06, 2015 12:23 am

QuiteGoneJin wrote:You should definitely give Tenshii some build advice, neat toy you have there. right up there with his neph regen proccing ua cloth bard he brings to banes. GJ.
Never brought that toon a bane. I think i had it once when you mooks were all on dwaves during lore server...and you got smashed hard.

that neph bard was solo pvp meta before all the bard changes. That toon was always on 20+ kill streaks. I always got the jump and popped people; one of the reasons it was so successful. Or do u forget the mad kill spams it brought u gimp.

your clueless fakejin. All u can make is what people tell u is good. You have no mind to make original shit.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by tooshifty » Wed May 06, 2015 12:23 am

QuiteGoneJin wrote:You should definitely give Tenshii some build advice, neat toy you have there. right up there with his neph regen proccing ua cloth bard he brings to banes. GJ.
Never brought that toon a bane. I think i had it once when you mooks were all on dwaves during lore server...and you got smashed hard.

that neph bard was solo pvp meta before all the bard changes. That toon was always on 20+ kill streaks. I always got the jump and popped people; one of the reasons it was so successful. Or do u forget the mad kill spams it brought u gimp.

your clueless fakejin. All u can make is what people tell u is good. You have no mind to make original shit.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by tooshifty » Wed May 06, 2015 12:26 am

Sek wrote:
Sinever wrote: You sure don't sugar coat things, do you? While I appreciate the offer for a build, I would much prefer your specific critiques on the build that you kinda bashed. I'm not gonna learn anything if I just equip a top tier build and start smashing my head into everyone else's top tier builds - I gotta know what makes good builds good (or in this case, what makes bad builds bad) and why. Just to be clear, we have to draw a line between a "flaw" and a "limitation". One can be corrected while the other has to be managed. I figured this would already be clear, but I want to make it an unanimous understanding that I do not AT ALL intend on making this build a solve-all solo or group build.
Ok, I`ll try to do this as quickly as possible (I might give up on the way though).

1) Why use spear? That is a horrible choice as a bard. You get NO weapon powers, at all. Use something else.
2) If you are already dead set on going with a spear, you should probably try and make some use of the cold DoT Wyrmslayer gives you. To do that, you could have went high int, and for somekind of a proccing build (bards make good proccers, and spear is the "best" 2 hander for proccing). However, you went STR/CON.
3) By going STR/CON you have also indirectly reduced your survivability. As an Aracoix bard one of your best bets to obtain longevity is to make use of Savant`s heal over time, and Runecaster`s heal. Both of those require relatively high INT to be efficient. You just shoot yourself in the foot there.
4) Another thing you could do for your survivability is to go high def. Since you are a rogue, and the highest resist armor you can get is LA, that is generally a good idea. But you went STR/CON, so no budge there.
5) Going for a regen build is kinda ok, but it`s not that great. You will never have the regen of rangers and hunties, or Nephs for that matter. Also your resist spread will be atrocius, and most meat toons will rip you apart if they get to you.
6) You don`t have Countersong anywhere in there. NEVER make a bard without Countersong.
7) I`m not sure if I`m reading that template right, but it looks like you are planning to leave INT at 40 (with maybe a few leftover points). INT is generally always taken to 60, so you can get 90 trains in focus line that are important to you. If you already knew that, and was planning for that, disregard this.

That is all, for now.

TD;DR:
Just don`t make that thing.
accurate.

ps. The strip will help u lower def to hit shit...and if u took a dif race and replaced savant with blademaster you could hit anything.

With the build u have now u wont kill much solo pvp, and ur a fly in gvg.

aracoix rogue is a bad choice for what u want to do. Tbh irekei mage bp with those stats would fair much better...more than 40int though.

ok...this build ran over a bed of nails...full of holes.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sek » Wed May 06, 2015 4:08 pm

cashmoneyflow wrote:Just so you guys can stop while you are ahead. You are getting trolled so hard.
You`re probably right. Ah, well... At least I helped all those poor souls out there that were genuinely contemplating about making a spear rogue bard...
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sinever » Wed May 06, 2015 4:50 pm

cashmoneyflow wrote:Just so you guys can stop while you are ahead. You are getting trolled so hard.
I'm not trolling; I'm simply a new player who is throwing stuff together and learning through trial and error. I figured I'd post this here for the feedback of the more veteran players, and have already learnt TONS of information from you helpful fellows who have had the heart the reply to my futile efforts to make an impossible build possible.
Sek wrote:Ok, I`ll try to do this as quickly as possible (I might give up on the way though).

1) Why use spear? That is a horrible choice as a bard. You get NO weapon powers, at all. Use something else.
2) If you are already dead set on going with a spear, you should probably try and make some use of the cold DoT Wyrmslayer gives you. To do that, you could have went high int, and for somekind of a proccing build (bards make good proccers, and spear is the "best" 2 hander for proccing). However, you went STR/CON.
3) By going STR/CON you have also indirectly reduced your survivability. As an Aracoix bard one of your best bets to obtain longevity is to make use of Savant`s heal over time, and Runecaster`s heal. Both of those require relatively high INT to be efficient. You just shoot yourself in the foot there.
4) Another thing you could do for your survivability is to go high def. Since you are a rogue, and the highest resist armor you can get is LA, that is generally a good idea. But you went STR/CON, so no budge there.
5) Going for a regen build is kinda ok, but it`s not that great. You will never have the regen of rangers and hunties, or Nephs for that matter. Also your resist spread will be atrocius, and most meat toons will rip you apart if they get to you.
6) You don`t have Countersong anywhere in there. NEVER make a bard without Countersong.
7) I`m not sure if I`m reading that template right, but it looks like you are planning to leave INT at 40 (with maybe a few leftover points). INT is generally always taken to 60, so you can get 90 trains in focus line that are important to you. If you already knew that, and was planning for that, disregard this.

That is all, for now.

TD;DR:
Just don`t make that thing.
Thank you. Seriously. For the most part, I was kinda throwing this together with my past understanding of RPGs in general, so a lot of this information is new to me. If it makes any of you guys feel better, I haven't actually put any time into leveling a char with this build and likely won't at this point seeing as you guys have let it be known that it wouldn't work. I'll change the name of the thread to reflect this, but I 'do' want to leave it so that people can still see this information and continue the discussion if y'all want.

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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sek » Wed May 06, 2015 5:46 pm

Sinever wrote: Thank you. Seriously. For the most part, I was kinda throwing this together with my past understanding of RPGs in general, so a lot of this information is new to me. If it makes any of you guys feel better, I haven't actually put any time into leveling a char with this build and likely won't at this point seeing as you guys have let it be known that it wouldn't work. I'll change the name of the thread to reflect this, but I 'do' want to leave it so that people can still see this information and continue the discussion if y'all want.
Ok, good to hear that I didn`t waste time writing the above.
Again, let me know if you want a build, or better yet post here and put some general ideas on what you want to build, and the community will help you piece it together.
For instance, start with something like: "I want a bard for solo PvP". Or "I want to play a support bard". Something along those lines.
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Re: Bard Build: "This is probably bad and stupid."

Post by Sinever » Wed May 06, 2015 5:53 pm

Sek wrote:Ok, good to hear that I didn`t waste time writing the above.
Again, let me know if you want a build, or better yet post here and put some general ideas on what you want to build, and the community will help you piece it together.
For instance, start with something like: "I want a bard for solo PvP". Or "I want to play a support bard". Something along those lines.
I think I'll take you up on that. I'm gonna go watch iZombie (damn good show btw) and then probably start a new thread? Anyways. Thanks again for all the support you guys gave; this was a huge learning experience for me.

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Re: Bard Build: "This IS bad and unviable. Don't make it."

Post by AdamWest » Wed May 06, 2015 5:59 pm

the New Player Help subforum might be more forgiving, Sinever :)

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Re: Bard Build: "This IS bad and unviable. Don't make it."

Post by notdoonossa » Wed May 06, 2015 6:25 pm

adam don't be a jerk to the newbie

newbie guy, i'm going to roll this tonight and i'll report back as to how it does
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Re: Bard Build: "This IS bad and unviable. Don't make it."

Post by Sinever » Wed May 06, 2015 6:49 pm

AdamWest wrote:the New Player Help subforum might be more forgiving, Sinever :)
Lol, I may start the build request thread there since it'll probably be more of a broad topic anyways. Thanks for the link :)
notdoonossa wrote:i'm going to roll this tonight and i'll report back as to how it does
Judging from everyone else's response to this build, you're quite bold. Good luck! It'll be interesting to hear how it plays.

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