this class is silly op

Khal
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Khal » Tue May 07, 2013 12:54 pm

Couple things;

1-i stopped playing before all the defense/thief love, so I'm not even going to comment on the op part, that being said;


2-everyone keeps focusing on the word "thief," what I see instead is that the thief is the "main" rogue class (in the way warriors are for fighters, priests are for healers, etc) AKA the epitome of that base class. Yes it's called a thief, but I more look at it as it is the epitome of rogues, which excel at surprise, sneak attacks, defense, and running/getting away, Which I feel like thieves are.


3-people keep saying thieves were feared because of their ability to steal...bull Skah!; I played a steal/dagger irekei thief as my main for years...stealing was always gimp'd. You never got all the money, you could only steal one thing at a time; why not just kill them and take everything? Spite junking? Fine, but if you want thieves to be centered on stealing then, stealing needs a huge boost... Maybe make it so that you get a chance to steal 3-4 items in an inventory, and more of a % of gold on hand?

Sorry, rambling, and can't really read what I'm saying on my phone :P
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Vervandi » Tue May 07, 2013 4:01 pm

I love that "parry" was included as a reason the class is OP.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by tooshifty » Tue May 07, 2013 6:36 pm

give sneak a cooldown when u come OUt of hide. that would solve lots of problems. Also if u cant sneak when targetted by someone who has hit u whithin a certen allotted time it will help. So this way u can still sneak while runnin away but not right in the middle of combat.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by aeroch » Wed May 08, 2013 1:57 am

i'd rather see Talon Dance toned down more than anything. aside from the natural flight crutch, the always-active 30% damage buff is the main reason there's so many bird Scouts and Thieves

also agree with increasing recast on Crippling Blow so that it can't always be active on one target

also agree with reverting Sneak back to a 2-3 second cast time

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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Telemakus » Wed May 08, 2013 2:31 am

aeroch wrote:i'd rather see Talon Dance toned down more than anything. aside from the natural flight crutch, the always-active 30% damage buff is the main reason there's so many bird Scouts and Thieves

also agree with increasing recast on Crippling Blow so that it can't always be active on one target

also agree with reverting Sneak back to a 2-3 second cast time
talon dance is +25% dmg

I agree with most of what people say in this thread. What about talon dance and fighters though? Do you think it's a superfluous/underpowered ability for fighters who would otherwise just get a class dmg buff or a 30% dmg buff from a different rune?

I'm not sure if talon dance is necessarily the problem.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by aeroch » Wed May 08, 2013 2:43 am

Telemakus wrote:What about talon dance and fighters though? Do you think it's a superfluous/underpowered ability for fighters who would otherwise just get a class dmg buff or a 30% dmg buff from a different rune?
i don't think it's underpowered for fighters. no need to refresh a chant and burn more stamina after casting a spell like with the Commander buff, the +15 con buff is a nice bonus, and the disc itself grants Throwing. so even if the damage buff was toned down Fighters would be able to compensate by taking Commander, should they choose

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Re: this class is silly op

Post by spazgar » Wed May 08, 2013 6:41 am

i don't think talon dance is a problem tbh. i think crippling blow even being in the game is more of a problem, along with insta sneak, coughing gas, peak/steal being worthless, and running+retreat.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by ManAgainstTime » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:14 pm

tooshifty wrote:I think birds are becoming a huge op issue too.
With certain classes.

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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Coolwatersx » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:33 pm

Moco wrote:I liked it better when thieves were meant to steal and were feared for that exact reason :?
I agree.

My fixes would be:

1. nixing insta sneak ... only insta hide at 40 trais.
2. remove coughing gas entirely.
3. revert backstab to backstab. Specifically remove pelegorne (sp?)
4. slightly decease the scaling on running

1 and 4 would balance Scouts as well. I agree Birds could use some kind of nerf.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by ARMS » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:20 pm

no

just vorg dagger really op

renual vorg dagger op !
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by TooT » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:09 pm

You could also give rouge vamps their second drain again and that would push some people away from birds.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Teerlys » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:15 pm

You really don't need to get rid of coughing gas, just tweak it a bit to achieve its intended purpose. It was supposed to give a Thief some time inside of a group to get out again. Tweak it so that it doesn't stack with any other ATR or Def debuffs and it's a non-issue. Most thieves probably wouldn't train it in that case like they used to not bother with it the first several months it was out before its stackability was common knowledge.

One thing to keep in mind when thinking about Thieves is to think of a human dagger thief before you call anything OP. If a coix version is OP and a human version isn't, it's the racial balance that needs to be addressed. On a human thief a nightstalker has a fair chance at me, a well played bow/nuketress can take me or make me run, a Ranger... well, it's just really hard to make a good open field Ranger.

The biggest problem area with Thieves and Scouts alike are Aracoix. They do 25% more damage, can move faster than any other race, can hit flyers or fly to avoid non ranged toons, and have a great stat spread for a rogue with a nice castable con buff to edge them out even further. They've been a problem race for Rogues even for a large portion of the end of live. I've always thought that the LA hood should be taken back out of the game (HA/MA hoods are fine) and likely even the sombrero as well, and I also like the thought that running should not factor in to flying speed. That way flying would be as much of a handicap as a help and only be something to be used for particular situations. Vampires are also a notch above other thieves with the ability to completely ignore passives and the fort, but not having gladiator is a big handicap as they can't fully make use of stealth the way other thieves can.
Last edited by Teerlys on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Abso » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:23 am

Quick fix, make skydancer available to barbarians, warlocks, warriors and bards.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Sckorch » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:49 pm

make sky dancer fighter only!
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Fallen13 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:42 pm

Rewen wrote:
Telemakus wrote:
Rewen wrote:OP how? at an open tree? That's all a thief has, really. You don't often see them at banes or mines.
The game is not entirely based on banes and mines. Balancing classes solely based on their roles in those departments would be an error.

This aint Guild Wars where you hit a button and pop into RvR. There's a massive pvp game outside of just those two features. If you try and balance the game solely based off of mines and banes, you'll have a guaranteed dead game.
Alright alright

Well if they get any nerfs at all, steal should become 20 range and usable while moving :3
Already the problem I've seen with this game is every dev simply wants to overbalance there own class choice.

Which will just lead to a dead server or little playground for you and select friends. Balancing must be made with all aspects of play considered. Any argument of this aspect or that aspect of play is really just a disinformation campaign to sidetrack the issue.

Until you address the bigger issues, your game will remain terribly unbalanced.

Allowing a class to debuff defense by 76% is a problem sorry no way to argue that one. A sword(BM or BW) theif can also minus dex by 130 that drops defense to the floor, while increasing dmg penetration to insanity.

Natural Flight is a problem, only bow classes can address it and that leaves 75% of the classes/builds negated in small scale combat. It leads to the 1000 scouts everywhere problem, and allows guilds to farm massive cash and unattainable gear that impacts large scale directly.

Tracking is a problem you have sabo cat like tread GIMPED hardcore and this leaves scout's and trackers the freedom to run around and rule small scale and farming which allows Guilds to control large scale by having the best geared toons and wealthiest cities.

Guilds rule large scale by squeezing small scale players out of the game before they can become a threat. One always directly impacts the others.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Rewen » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:01 am

That post you quoted was a joke from before I was even on the team.

Once the time comes to discuss balance, it will be done with a focus group and be subject to rigorous testing before ever seeing the light of a live server,

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Re: this class is silly op

Post by TGreg1066 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:55 am

Rewen wrote:Alright alright

Well if they get any nerfs at all, steal should become 20 range and usable while moving :3
The range thing doesn't make any sense but... I'm ok with stealing while moving... Of course, it might need a 20 yard range so it will work occasionally with the awful sync issues... :P

Also, Scouts are only OP against other rogues. Run around on a properly speced sorc wizard and you'll laugh at every scout while you kill them.

-160 str and dex = very dead tea-bagged scout. They usually barely get through my absorber before they die.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Fallen13 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:21 am

Rewen wrote:That post you quoted was a joke from before I was even on the team.

Once the time comes to discuss balance, it will be done with a focus group and be subject to rigorous testing before ever seeing the light of a live server,
The issues of balance are pretty blatant atm, just gotta make sure the team chooses the most impartial decisions that balance the game overall and don't let team members argue for their favorites.

Things like...

Natural Flight(including keeping running speed in flight)
Tracking
Glass Weapons
Class specific weapons
Summoning in combat/botting
And power skill lvls per class

all need tweaking, and anyone who argue's those things are fine clearly has an agenda in mind that is not good for the longevity of the emulator. Like the guy above me making the outrageous claim that a wizard could survive a glass bow scout properly spec'd for more than few seconds when I obliterate every mage I've ever seen usually before they even know where it's coming from lol. A smart Wizard would tran out and recall. Of course he really plays a birdman scout and is utterly fos.
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by unfringed » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:30 pm

If a wizard (or any caster, really) is playing post-glass without poison resistance, he deserves to die. If he has poison resist, the scout can't do Skah!.

As Teer hinted at earlier, the problem with thieves is racial, not class. Removing skydancer from thieves and scouts would be a flat-out 25% damage reduction for 80% of thieves and scouts. That's a hefty nerf.

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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Bleeds » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:11 pm

Every game with cloak/stealth character abilities has a boatload of "bads" trying to justify their lack of game prowess in the form of forum complaints. Step up your game, counter their tactics and stop crying. Nerfs, if ever needed, should be applied with extreme caution. I know many great players who would welcome a thief/scout to get dunked.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Marksman » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:23 pm

Ajushi wrote:Acquire a glass bow and then roll a bird scout. Problem solved.

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Re: this class is silly op

Post by longblade » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:32 pm

Every time I hear that scouts are overpowered I feel my IQ lower. How many people have actually died to a scout, who were not in the middle of farming?? It takes a lot of work to be anything other than an annoyance on a scout.

How could you call that OP???
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Ajushi » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:09 pm

You recently admitted to not having played much for a long time. I can assure you, very active people die to bow scouts every day.
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Now you must build the lies you have told.

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Re: this class is silly op

Post by longblade » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:25 pm

Ajushi wrote:You recently admitted to not having played much for a long time. I can assure you, very active people die to bow scouts every day.
I haven't played for a long time, and i'm itching to get back into the game. However when i did play it was from week 2 to the end. The only groups i ever saw wiped out by scouts were pl groups with active looters and afk lvl bots.

Have you changed the game so much since live that scouts have become killing machines? What professions are you playing that are getting destroyed by the all mighty scouts?
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Khal
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Khal » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:25 pm

This thread used to be in the thief forums. Who moved it here, and why?
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by Ajushi » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:50 pm

When you get a chance to get in game, Longblade, roll up one of your locks and head to a hotzone. I'm sure it won't take long for you to get a 1v1 with a scout. I'm not saying you will definitely lose or anything, but I expect you to get more of a fight than you are bargaining on.
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Re: this class is silly op

Post by longblade » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:59 pm

Ajushi wrote:When you get a chance to get in game, Longblade, roll up one of your locks and head to a hotzone. I'm sure it won't take long for you to get a 1v1 with a scout. I'm not saying you will definitely lose or anything, but I expect you to get more of a fight than you are bargaining on.
Man, I hope so. It's the reason i love this game.
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