Bots in the Next Phase

Blyster
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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Blyster » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:04 pm

shadowboxer wrote:
Blyster wrote:
shadowboxer wrote:

Yes it can, I do it on the software my own company sells. You can easily limit the client to a number of instances open on 1 computer, even preventing it from running in a virtual box.

You don't want it to be done, because those your people, isn't that right Mr CN blyster?
You are by far the biggest retard I've ever seen on these forums with all your dumbass accusations like that. Again, use the search button for once and you'll quickly see my abhorred stance against the tactics of the PACRIM community.

And even if this emulator's devs had the capability to isolate MAC addresses, create and require digital signature certificates, and inject code that prevented virtual boxes and proxies and the use of any other possible 3rd-party program that can bypass any of these things (in both PC and Mac systems), who these days doesn't own multiple computers? I have freaking 4 of them (2 laptops and my two old towers), plus my work laptop that I can bring home if I wanted as well. Normally, though, I just play a vamp summon scout on one laptop and an assassin on the other. I don't use buffbots and virtually never have more than 2 logins at same time. IF I have a 3rd, it's sitting in town rolling gear and that's about it.

As has been stated, we are working on ways to make botting not so easy and friendly. But because there are so many ways to get around trying to limit logins, this emulator is not going to waste it's time on coding Skah! that will only effect some and not all, that would only end up hurting some while creating a means to an advantage for others. Instead, they are concentrating on things they can actually control that would equally effect everyone. Like game mechanics that make multiboxing for numbers, macroing, not sitting at keys, and using bots a hassle or difficult or less of an advantage.

But of course, I'm sure you'll reply with more mind numbing crying and retarded hyperbolic accusations as always.
You obviously have ZERO programming knowledge. I suggest hanging out at stackoverflow.com. What I suggested has nothing to do with IP's or mac addresses. I suggest not commenting unless you have knowledge on the subject - which you don't. You're CN friends wouldn't like this change now would they?
Amaz wrote:We can enforce only one character per forum account being logged in at once, as we have through CB so far, but as soon as people can just go and make another forum account, that goes out the window.

We could enforce a one account logging in from an IP address, but there would be howls of protest from people playing in dormitories, frat houses, universities, work or anywhere else where they are behind a NAT router shared with other people. Not the mention all the people with "flatmates" and "girlfriends" that share an internet connection. We all know that 90% of those girlfriends sit around AFK in Aeldreth waiting to "buff" their weapon, and evac them, but we cant prove it, and even if we could, it would be a bit hard on the other 10%.

The game client being the quality product that it is, doesn't provide us with any information that lets us determine if its one of several accounts running on a single PC, or if there are several PCs. So the only other way to enforce it would be with manual CSR investigations which would be extremely unpopular, and disproportionally expensive on CSR time.
Amaz wrote:Sadly the game client does not send MAC address or anything else useful. All we have is a source IP for the connection, which could legitimately shelter a number of legitimate players if it was a NAT router or VPN gateway.
Does it get through your thick idiot skull when a developer says it?

Blyster
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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Blyster » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:39 pm

Also, the IP addresses we see on computers themselves are called internal IP addresses (basically fake) that are translated into one or more real addresses by our dlink nat router. NAT routers have to remember which IP you tried to connect to so that when it responds it knows who to send it to on the inside. Fake/internal IPs are non-routable so they can't be reached over the internet. They are reserved addresses setup by the IETF/IANA and look like 192.168.x.x and 10.x.x.x

MAC addresses are a layer 2 ethernet address. Because the internet is layer 3 (IP), that MAC address is unreachable outside of your tiny home network. Ethernet uses MAC addresses to direct traffic (ethernet switches, etc) while IP uses IP addresses to rout traffic, so every computer that uses ethernet has to use ARP to translate between MACs and IPs.

Basically, the server will only see 2 MAC addresses on EVERY packet it receives- its own (destination address) and the address on the router (source address) connected directly to it. The server cannot learn the MAC address of the clients because the networking stack doesn't provide it. MAC addresses are only valid for the local ethernet link between you and your router.

There are also issues with MAC addresses not always being unique (some cheapo manufactures used the same small set of addresses on all of their equipment) and that you can change it easily in the driver.

As a result of all this, the ONLY way to acquire client-side data to uniquely identify machines would be for the dev team to create our own client that transmits the MAC with every packet. And this would take ridonkulous amounts of time.

The only other option, besides coding manual CSR as Amaz explained, which would be way too expensive and costly for a short-handed volunteer staff of an emulator project, would be to create an app that launches a digital certificate that registers with the game server and is required to be present and active when launching the game client on your PC. Which again is another very time consuming and costly task for a small volunteer staff of a simple emulator project.

And lastly, even if they did take the time out to do one of these things, this won't prevent people with multiple computers from having an advantage over people with only one computer. In fact, it would directly result in an unavoidable disadvantage for people with only one computer because they have no option at all then. The people with multiple computers would have no possible counter and always have an advantage at this point.

So whatever, bub. Keep crying.

Amaz
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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Amaz » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:18 pm

With a modern PC you wouldn't need separate PCs even then. When I am working on the project I run several clients in different VMs, all of which have their own IP addresses obtained from my router. Shadowbane has such low resource requirements it's terribly easy to run in a VM.

shadowboxer
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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by shadowboxer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:32 pm

Blyster wrote:Also, the IP addresses we see on computers themselves are called internal IP addresses (basically fake) that are translated into one or more real addresses by our dlink nat router. NAT routers have to remember which IP you tried to connect to so that when it responds it knows who to send it to on the inside. Fake/internal IPs are non-routable so they can't be reached over the internet. They are reserved addresses setup by the IETF/IANA and look like 192.168.x.x and 10.x.x.x

MAC addresses are a layer 2 ethernet address. Because the internet is layer 3 (IP), that MAC address is unreachable outside of your tiny home network. Ethernet uses MAC addresses to direct traffic (ethernet switches, etc) while IP uses IP addresses to rout traffic, so every computer that uses ethernet has to use ARP to translate between MACs and IPs.

Basically, the server will only see 2 MAC addresses on EVERY packet it receives- its own (destination address) and the address on the router (source address) connected directly to it. The server cannot learn the MAC address of the clients because the networking stack doesn't provide it. MAC addresses are only valid for the local ethernet link between you and your router.

There are also issues with MAC addresses not always being unique (some cheapo manufactures used the same small set of addresses on all of their equipment) and that you can change it easily in the driver.

As a result of all this, the ONLY way to acquire client-side data to uniquely identify machines would be for the dev team to create our own client that transmits the MAC with every packet. And this would take ridonkulous amounts of time.

The only other option, besides coding manual CSR as Amaz explained, which would be way too expensive and costly for a short-handed volunteer staff of an emulator project, would be to create an app that launches a digital certificate that registers with the game server and is required to be present and active when launching the game client on your PC. Which again is another very time consuming and costly task for a small volunteer staff of a simple emulator project.

And lastly, even if they did take the time out to do one of these things, this won't prevent people with multiple computers from having an advantage over people with only one computer. In fact, it would directly result in an unavoidable disadvantage for people with only one computer because they have no option at all then. The people with multiple computers would have no possible counter and always have an advantage at this point.

So whatever, bub. Keep crying.
Your a copy/paste warrior. You don't have a clue about licensing and copy protection or how to limit anything.

shadowboxer
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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by shadowboxer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:39 pm

Amaz wrote:With a modern PC you wouldn't need separate PCs even then. When I am working on the project I run several clients in different VMs, all of which have their own IP addresses obtained from my router. Shadowbane has such low resource requirements it's terribly easy to run in a VM.

Client: Hardware lock accounts to machine, disallow multiple instances of a client being opened on the same computer as well as disallowing the client to run in a virtual environment. Anything to do with tying an IP to an account or computer would be extra at that point.

Not much coding involved there.

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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by zenjah » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:11 pm

shadowboxer wrote:Client: Hardware lock accounts to machine, disallow multiple instances of a client being opened on the same computer as well as disallowing the client to run in a virtual environment. Anything to do with tying an IP to an account or computer would be extra at that point.

Not much coding involved there.
Are you talking adding code to the client? Unless I misunderstand your suggestion, that would be rather difficult without access to the client source code.

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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Colest » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:00 pm

shadowboxer wrote:
Amaz wrote:With a modern PC you wouldn't need separate PCs even then. When I am working on the project I run several clients in different VMs, all of which have their own IP addresses obtained from my router. Shadowbane has such low resource requirements it's terribly easy to run in a VM.

Client: Hardware lock accounts to machine, disallow multiple instances of a client being opened on the same computer as well as disallowing the client to run in a virtual environment. Anything to do with tying an IP to an account or computer would be extra at that point.

Not much coding involved there.
There's a problem with that though, mainly the whole editing the client part. They just recently cracked the pandora's box of editing basic shit like abilities and assets. It'll be a while before something like that is even possible, nevermind the fact that even MAC addresses are able to be forged and falsified.

shadowboxer
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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by shadowboxer » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:12 am

Yes, you would need to edit the actual client to do it. Is the client obfuscated? If not, should be able to decompile and get close to source code. Nothing to do with Mac Addresses. Upon a player entering their account details, the client sends data back to server registering the computer, the info could include cpuid, bios, video card serials, hdd serials, SCSI controller, CD ROM. A number of different things or just a few. It takes all those different parts and makes a unique serial key that gets stored per machine into a database that is used to link an account. There would be soft limits of how many machines the client can be active. Could be any number that can obviously be easily reset at anytime.

Limiting Instances: Yes, need to be added to the actual client. This will prevent players from opening the game twice at the same time on the same computer. Code can also be added to prevent the use of client in virtual machine and even prevent use through remote desktop.

Using IP and trying to use mac address is the worst way to combat the issue. If it's used at all, it's used as an extra - tied into other parts, but not by itself. Because it's very simple to defeat it.

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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Amaz » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:14 am

The client is a statically linked monolithic C program with a couple of little DLLs hanging off the side to handing things like the in-game advertising. It took the early developers several months of crawling over it with a disassembler just to get the basic connection going.

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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Amaz » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:17 am

Assets and abilities are basically just data files, they dont involve the client code at all, they just needed decrypting and working out what the hell the different field in them meant.

Blyster
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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Blyster » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:20 pm

Is this getting through your thick idiot skull yet, shadowboxer?

You're wrong, I'm right, now suck it, crybaby boy.

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Re: Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Skyslayer630 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:29 pm

I hope that after the bot changes are done that those stupid conc pots will be taken out of the game. If you're not going to take them out then you should bake all those stats into every character by default, because everyone always uses them. All it does is add a bunch of lag.

Also, the greater conc pots shouldnt be available on noob isle. You should create a lesser conc pot for noob isle, with +20 instead of +55.

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Bots in the Next Phase

Post by Bodlede » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:01 am

Are you looking for the newer paper prizes, such as the fold-able president heads, and pencil toppers?

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