Vlaad wrote:Does anyone else think the only reason that there was a scoutbane is not because scouts are super over-powered but because the population is so low that there is more small-scale pvp (the area in which scouts excel)?
No, it was 1000% because of detect hidden.
I pulled these comments over here from the Scout Running Thread because it relates to the topic of rogues losing their GM stealth..
Just to expand a bit more though, it actually seems the reason there was a scoutbane was because they are the only class with an EASY MODE GM ABILITY TO DETECT HIDDEN.
...When there's 100 scouts logged in, only maybe 15 thieves, 10 nightstalkers, 10 huntress, 5 rangers, maybe a few assassins, bards, wizzy's, and templars, are you seriously insisting that this isn't absolute proof of a problem?
And why is there so many scouts? Well think about it for a second. What's the ONE BIG DIFFERENCE between scouts and thieves?
A Thief can do EVERYTHING a scout can do, except BETTER. So why aren't there 100 thieves on instead of scouts since a thief is obviously superior in every way? Because of one thing, Detect Hidden.
So arbitrarily "lowering scout's defense" isn't a solution to the problem because scout's PvP prowess and defense is NOT why people play scouts. If lowering defense was a solution, people would simply have been playing thieves from the start. Lowering defense would change NOTHING except gimp scout's survivability and force people to avoid PvP even more. It wouldn't reduce the number of scouts being played because they were still the ONLY profession that could detect GM stealth.
So the ONLY possible solution was to make it so scouts were no longer the only profession that could detect stealthers. (emphasis added)
All I keep reading from everyone in support of these changes (to rogue's GM stealth and changing the mechanics around detect hidden) is that it’s the ONLY POSSIBLE SOLUTION to the scout problem. More cases in point:
...You just have to adapt a bit. These changes weren't at all about "nerfing rogues". They were about "ending the scoutbane meta". And unfortunately, the ONLY WAY to end the scout meta, was to change the mechanics around detect hidden (emphasis added). Detect hidden is the ONLY reason why scouts were the meta in the world of stealth, solo, and rogue play....
GIhunter6 wrote: ...The problem is that scouts are the only class getting any amount of PVP because the only thing that can pop a scout out of stealth is of course another scout (emphasis added).
Hugues wrote:So just cause you can't kill the scout when hes invisible they are op?
Nobody says those changes are made because they are op (backstab changes were because of that). These changes are only because scouts are mandatory in small scale due to people avoiding using stealth. And the only char that can pop anyone is scout right now
(emphasis added). I don't know how else to say it so you will understand. I think you just don't see the issue because your playstyle is probably just that.
This is where the real misconception is. There are other ways to pop a scout, but you just have to use some effort and apply a bit of skill.
CorEL wrote:Then there is this scenario: Let’s say I play a mage who’s still blind as a bat, but I summon my pet and send him in the direction that my Scry tells me. Then I cast my new AOE with 40 unit radius on my pet and then BOOM! …Potentially 60 stealthers either revealed or dead. (Don’t get me wrong, I kind of like this AOE change and I think it will make things very interesting). I also don’t mind this as counter for popping stealthers, as it requires the player to use skill, verses easy mode “detect hidden”. I'm just saying Stealth appears like it may be worthless once it drops down to 20..
Ok, so Scry tells you somebody is north, up to 600 units away (short track range according to the scry topic). If you are so skilled to pop someone with 20 unit radius spell, you deserve to reveal them. You can do that with aoe spells even today. Even if you pop them, they can just use stalk and Anyway, According to the patch notes, scry is point blanc aoe ("reveals those around him") so this situation cannot happen anyway.
If I am correct, I believe it is a 40 unit radius spell, and I didn't catch that about being a point blank range, but I imagine scenarios like the one described above could work using Scry or Track without the pet or with other AOE spells. I completely agree with you though about the "deserve to reveal them" part. It is also much more rewarding to rely on skill over something as easy as detect hidden.
Here is a player who doesn’t rely on an easy mode detect hidden ability:
tooshifty wrote:my neph bard is working great for popping things and anti-scouting...i refuse to make scouts atm...im just making other rogues 1v1 that pop toons.
I've back-stabbed and popped enough scouts.
TBH there arent enough toons with an aoe option to pop stealthers. Id rather see more aoe popping options than modifiying the whole gameplay in terms of stealth pvp. I mean.... my bard solves all my Scoutbane problems...now we just need more toons like that.
Well....it still doesnt solve roguebane though i guess.
I 100% agree with him (minus the roguebane part). Why not make the game more conducive to players like him?
...Maybe I shouldn't have used word that scout is mandatory (even thou it is true when you want to find pvp and not just ppl on track without the ability to pop them - excluding aoe etc. - only noobs get caught), I should have probably said something like: scout is overplayed in small scale and the change will promote build diversity in the field and will cut down ppl avoding pvp. Tell me why this is such a bad thing...
Isn't it mainly noobs that run from pvp? The reason this change to rogue stealth is a bad thing is because it takes away the rogues ability to be a rogue by giving over half the classes out there (like thieves) access to the problem (An EASY MODE GM ABILITY TO DETECT HIDDEN) instead of just a counter for dealing with it (ig. Scry-AOE pop).
It completely changes the dynamics of the game in a very possible bad way. For further elaboration please refer back to my post above to Blyster how this could essentially create a worldwide environment of having a Watchful Spire on.
So there are many like myself who agree that there is a problem with scouts and their powerful easy mode tool (detect hidden); it is what makes them who they are. The supposed solution that is being implemented or considered could actually create an even greater problem (a huge imbalance and less enjoyment to the rogue class).
Contrary to what many have been saying, there are other ways to pop a scout (or any other rogue out of stealth), but you just have to use a bit of skill. If I can do it on my Ranger’s gimp Whirlwind attack with 6 unit area of effect (not to say that it was easy) then I don’t see why the entire game needs to be changed. AOE casters are getting a powerful new 40 unit area of affect ability to do this, along with mages getting access to Scry. Maybe these new features could be tested out for revealing first before going to such huge extremes of turning the Watchful Spire on the whole server (30 seconds of Stalk doesn't make up for this).
...The Beserker, Blademaster, Bladeweaver & Storm Lord Point-Blank Physical Area of Effect skills (currently pretty useless in all regards) will be made viable in the next patch. However, if there's demand for that (or casters rule the day) during the testing week, we will bring it forward. This will allow melee to compete with casters in terms of damage output in "zerg" or large number situations.
Very interesting. These AOE changes could potentially kill 2 birds with one stone.