[Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing Notes

buckly4u
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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by buckly4u » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:15 am

Skyslayer630 wrote:So now any time you're out trying to level up your R3, at any moment 4 scouts can pop out of nowhere and kill you, even if you have a huntsman or a bounty hunter. Same goes for anyone trying to conduct business at their ToL. You will never know for sure that any place on the map is safe, even if track is clear there could be a horde of scouts waiting around. It wont matter too much that the scouts damage will be gimped, it is still enough damage to get the job done, because you just know it wont be just one. Track is one thing that should never have been messed with...

for one, all rogues get the stalk ability, not just scouts.

for two its a 30 second ability with a 180 second cooldown. and if youre complaining that you might die in a pvp game, you're gonna have a bad time. i'm not trying to be mean, or anything, but if thats your main complaint its not going to get far. what would you have done on that r3 currently? tabbed over to your evac bot and left?

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by QuiteGoneJin » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:32 am

What a derailment. I definately dont care about being ganked on an r3, thats going to happen anyway. Suck it up buttercup. Now, back to the topic, ALL rogues will be able to detect when stalking now which was meant to combat the "rogue standoff" or "bring a scout" game, but what do casters with invis get to compensate? What SHOULD they get?

/discuss.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Blyster » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:32 am

QuiteGoneJin wrote:What a derailment. I definately dont care about being ganked on an r3, thats going to happen anyway. Suck it up buttercup. Now, back to the topic, ALL rogues will be able to detect when stalking now which was meant to combat the "rogue standoff" or "bring a scout" game, but what do casters with invis get to compensate? What SHOULD they get?

/discuss.
Again, there's no difference for mages than before these changes. PR-20 stealth could already be seen by Bounty Hunter PR-20 detect hidden before.

That said, mages DA's are now 1,000 damage rather than 750, root has a longer duration, shorter cast time, and shorter recycle time, and Battlemagus gets a new power called "Scry", which is explained in the patch notes. Plus several mage professions got some changes that are surely considered upgrades. Not to mention, all AoE's now hit up to 60 non-nation targets, most AoE's are now technically "group friendly" as a result (except for a select few), melee damage buffs now cap at +40% @ GM and +20% @ JM, and most of all resistance buffs have had a huge overhaul. There are no more one hour duration +50 or +60 resist buffs and all jewelry resist numbers we're reduced (ie. charmed neck is now only +10 f/c/l resist, etc. etc.). Pretty much any use of resist buffs are only viable on active chars during combat, which means there's a much greater chance that target chars will have less resists on them than before.

There's absolutely no need to worry about mages.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by buckly4u » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:45 pm

to me, these changes just force people to fight, which is a good thing. no more stealth to avoid pvp.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Skyslayer630 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:08 pm

buckly4u wrote:
Skyslayer630 wrote:So now any time you're out trying to level up your R3, at any moment 4 scouts can pop out of nowhere and kill you, even if you have a huntsman or a bounty hunter. Same goes for anyone trying to conduct business at their ToL. You will never know for sure that any place on the map is safe, even if track is clear there could be a horde of scouts waiting around. It wont matter too much that the scouts damage will be gimped, it is still enough damage to get the job done, because you just know it wont be just one. Track is one thing that should never have been messed with...

for one, all rogues get the stalk ability, not just scouts.

for two its a 30 second ability with a 180 second cooldown. and if youre complaining that you might die in a pvp game, you're gonna have a bad time. i'm not trying to be mean, or anything, but if thats your main complaint its not going to get far. what would you have done on that r3 currently? tabbed over to your evac bot and left?
Im talking about recon, not stalk, genius. Recon untrackability lasts long enough to be a needless nuisance in a number of situations

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Colest » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:15 pm

Skyslayer630 wrote:
buckly4u wrote:
Skyslayer630 wrote:So now any time you're out trying to level up your R3, at any moment 4 scouts can pop out of nowhere and kill you, even if you have a huntsman or a bounty hunter. Same goes for anyone trying to conduct business at their ToL. You will never know for sure that any place on the map is safe, even if track is clear there could be a horde of scouts waiting around. It wont matter too much that the scouts damage will be gimped, it is still enough damage to get the job done, because you just know it wont be just one. Track is one thing that should never have been messed with...

for one, all rogues get the stalk ability, not just scouts.

for two its a 30 second ability with a 180 second cooldown. and if youre complaining that you might die in a pvp game, you're gonna have a bad time. i'm not trying to be mean, or anything, but if thats your main complaint its not going to get far. what would you have done on that r3 currently? tabbed over to your evac bot and left?
Im talking about recon, not stalk, genius. Recon untrackability lasts long enough to be a needless nuisance in a number of situations
Recon also takes 20 seconds to cast and has -40% damage debuff that lasts the entire duration of the ability even if you break it early (you cast recon, break it after 30 seconds you still have 150 seconds of -40% damage but no stealth/sprint/untrackability). Really, we tried to find a way to break this ability in solo and was extremely difficult. Best case scenario, it wears off right around when you approach someone and you transition into stalk to ambush them which is extremely rare.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Colest » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:16 pm

Sorry correction, that damage debuff lasts the entirety of the cooldown now so my hypothetical doesn't even work unless the person is not watching scroll.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Vlaad » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:04 pm

Hey Starfish thanks for the reply! Just a few questions;
Starfish wrote:
Grasp of thorns is still a waste of trains
Grasp of thorns has been nerfed in test server 4 times now because it has simply been so powerful. It's still very powerful, but very "variable", not consistent at all.
I know Ive been gone a while but how has a Ranger GoT been so OP that is needed to be nerfed 4 times? Was there a fotm all int high beastcraft nukegers? Did people forget to dispel half the damage with a basic heal?
Starfish wrote:
1) Do Confessors have enough trains to be viable casters and/or viable healers?
You'll have to choose which one you want to be more focused on. You won't be able to get all the goodies of both, but with sacrifices you can absolutely still deal damage and have supportive capabilities. The Purge Wickedness/Contrition changes are a huge buff to survivability on the move, but do require a lot of trains to get good ATR to make consistent. It's definitely possible to make a well rounded confessor, but there are things you sacrifice.
Im curious as to the reasoning for the change? I know fessors had a bit of upfront damage but they also lack ability to first strike and stun that every other caster class has. So why lower the total damage, lower the DA, and keep them vulnerable to free initiation? Are there plans to make them more viable healers when going resto?
Starfish wrote:
2) Without any compensatory buffs, why take a scout anymore?
Scouts will have access to the only GM perma-stealth spell in the game. Camouflage is now a 3 person AoE sneak, allowing you to put characters without invis in a better invisibility than rogues (Camouflage is +10% movement, normal sneak is -30% movement, meaning scouts in Camo are a lot faster than normal rogues invis!). Finally, Scouts have an incredibly powerful single target Root, while only lasting 3 seconds it does not dispel when the target takes damage - perfect support for keeping an enemy in range of your meat train or within range of your casters, shuts down a running target and very unique, and we're looking at possibly adding a second effect to that power or reducing the cooldown (depending on testing).
I said this in another thread but scouts have been consistent since the beginning of the game. I understand why you feel you have to combat scoutbane but do you think scoutbane exists solely because the population only supports small-scale pvp which is the area scouts shine? Scouts have always sacrificed damage for speed and initiation. Im just not seeing the reason for the dmg/pwr dmg debuff.
Starfish wrote:
however it is an out-of-combat-only ability.
1.5s is very fast casting. It's absolutely usable in combat (we've run combat tests), but yes, if you have someone on top of you it's difficult to get off. We'll keep an eye on it for sure to make sure it's usable.
Okay I should have been more specific. Yes it is castable in combat. Just not against anyone with a bleed or fast attack speed or stun or outside of one person targeting you at a time.

That being said Im not saying its weak and it is definitely better than Beast Lords Boon. I am only concerned if it is a point sync on an already point tight class.
Starfish wrote:
Does mend wounds scale now too
Yes. It's healing rescaled to be less at 1 point. It's mana cost was reduced at 1 point and increased at 40 points. Rangers were basically the new scout - except with twice the damage, healing and utility, so we had to make these adjustments to keep them in check while retaining their quasi-supportive status.

I hope that clears things up a bit. We're carefully watching Jackal's Cloak, as it has a way of making or breaking the fight. Very powerful when it's used right, but hard to use right.
[/quote]

Does that mean the heal now scales to higher levels at higher trains? Or is the max still the same with a less effective 1-point?

You cleared up a lot thanks!

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Drenath » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:18 pm

Vlaad wrote:Hey Starfish thanks for the reply! Just a few questions;
Starfish wrote:
Grasp of thorns is still a waste of trains
Grasp of thorns has been nerfed in test server 4 times now because it has simply been so powerful. It's still very powerful, but very "variable", not consistent at all.
I know Ive been gone a while but how has a Ranger GoT been so OP that is needed to be nerfed 4 times? Was there a fotm all int high beastcraft nukegers? Did people forget to dispel half the damage with a basic heal?
I bolded the important part of Starfish's post that renders the follow-up questions unnecessary.
I said this in another thread but scouts have been consistent since the beginning of the game. I understand why you feel you have to combat scoutbane but do you think scoutbane exists solely because the population only supports small-scale pvp which is the area scouts shine? Scouts have always sacrificed damage for speed and initiation. Im just not seeing the reason for the dmg/pwr dmg debuff.
Well that's just not true though. They haven't been "consistent since the beginning" unless you're pretending this is 2006. Scouts haven't had to sacrifice damage for mobility since before SB was F2P. Steps are being taken to rectify that.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by shadowboxer » Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:50 am

Drenath wrote:
Vlaad wrote:Hey Starfish thanks for the reply! Just a few questions;
Starfish wrote:
Grasp of thorns has been nerfed in test server 4 times now because it has simply been so powerful. It's still very powerful, but very "variable", not consistent at all.
I know Ive been gone a while but how has a Ranger GoT been so OP that is needed to be nerfed 4 times? Was there a fotm all int high beastcraft nukegers? Did people forget to dispel half the damage with a basic heal?
I bolded the important part of Starfish's post that renders the follow-up questions unnecessary.
I said this in another thread but scouts have been consistent since the beginning of the game. I understand why you feel you have to combat scoutbane but do you think scoutbane exists solely because the population only supports small-scale pvp which is the area scouts shine? Scouts have always sacrificed damage for speed and initiation. Im just not seeing the reason for the dmg/pwr dmg debuff.
Well that's just not true though. They haven't been "consistent since the beginning" unless you're pretending this is 2006. Scouts haven't had to sacrifice damage for mobility since before SB was F2P. Steps are being taken to rectify that.

Let's ask Mr Coleman on Crowfall if he thinks this change is balancing :) There's a reason real game developers that weren't making changes to fit their playstyle left it alone.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by CorEL » Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:57 am

Starfish wrote:I think when you all try out Stalk, you'll agree rogues are still pretty powerful. Bounty Hunter detect hidden was nerfed pretty heavily, and cannot see you while you're in Stalk or Camouflage. If rogues need some loving we will absolutely examine that and rethink some changes or tweak it. For example, reducing the cooldown & stamina cost of stalk. The really nice thing about stalk is the runbuff and ability to see other rogues - this is kind of a buff to rogues in solo play as you no longer need a scout to be able to see other rogues. So if you go out to a disc on your nightstalker, and there's a thief on track or a scout, or a huntress.. you can see them! That's exactly what this change was meant to do. Before there was always a stalemate in rogue vs rogue unless one side had a scout, we wanted to remove that to make solo/smallscale combat more about actually fighting, and less about who brings a scout.
Thanks for the reply Starfish. I have nothing but respect for those that have volunteered their time to remake this game and endeavor to make it even greater, but I can’t help but to think that these stealth changes could make things extremely off balance for rogues. This is a huge blow to one particular playstyle that I very much enjoy. I’m not talking about avoiding pvp, or ganking low levels; I realize that’s what a good majority of the player base use stealth for. I play rogue to seek out pvp and take on challenging situations that you could not normally do with most other classes.

Based on what I have read in the patch notes and forums, I see Stealth becoming worthless once it drops downs to PR-20. Not only do all fighters and rogues have access to the BH, but Shades can see through it, and Prelate’s Radiant Beacon can now reveal too as I’m understanding. Also, what about Witches Site? Why take BH when anyone can be a scout for 6 ability points:

Then there is this scenario: Let’s say I play a mage who’s still blind as a bat, but I summon my pet and send him in the direction that my Scry tells me. Then I cast my new AOE with 40 unit radius on my pet and then BOOM! …Potentially 60 stealthers either revealed or dead. (Don’t get me wrong, I kind of like this AOE change and I think it will make things very interesting). I also don’t mind this as counter for popping stealthers, as it requires the player to use skill, verses easy mode “detect hidden”. I'm just saying Stealth appears like it may be worthless once it drops down to 20..

As far as the ability for a rogue to detect on stalk, that does not seem to relate to or make up for the loss of GM Stealth. Some players, like myself, use stealth to seek out and truly stalk a group of high level players and pick them off one at a time. These stealth changes will greatly impede the ability to do that. I don’t see how 30 seconds of Stalk (even when used in conjunction with an improved Cat Like Tread) is really going to help any rogue launch a surprise attack...especially when he can be seen by every other rogue.

I think it’s possible the majority of players who still find reason to play rogue may just save Stalk as an escape route to avoid confrontation. Some players may even find more value in their new Cammo Bot to cammo up their real heavy hitters. If I’m reading correctly, now we are looking at players possibly having even more reason to play scout and a bot scout at that. (Btw…I do much like the other changes that effect Bot reliance). I realize there may be a bunch of whiny players who want to farm in peace, or maybe they don’t want to be harassed by pesky rogues, and hence maybe one of the reasons for these changes, but how do you think they are going to enjoy dealing with cammied suicide bombers? If it’s going to be possible for any character to have a GM camouflage via a scout bot, why even play a rogue with only 30 seconds of Stalk, when you can have that? Am I missing something here? I’m just going by what I see in the patch notes and the forums and maybe I am overlooking a few things, but I hope things are thought out about these rogue changes is all.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by CorEL » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:19 am

Blyster wrote: Why is there this misconception that rogues are now at a disadvantage from this?

Properly built rogues can stand toe-to-toe with just about any other char in the game. There's of course the rock/paper/scissors aspect so of course some rogues are not meant to be able to kill everyone and everything. But, most rogues I can conceive of that are not simply support builds, should still be able to kill most mages, most healers, several fighter builds, and the usual other rogues depending on matchups.

Rogue vs rogue is a wash because all rogues are effected by the change. Rogue vs. mage and healer is unchanged. And rogue vs. fighter wasn't a death sentence for rogues before when toe-to-toe anyways. Plus, there's still an improved cat-like-tread skill (longer untrackability) and stalk is still GM stealth.

You just have to adapt a bit. These changes weren't at all about "nerfing rogues". They were about "ending the scoutbane meta". And unfortunately, the ONLY WAY to end the scout meta, was to change the mechanics around detect hidden. Detect hidden is the ONLY reason why scouts were the meta in the world of stealth, solo, and rogue play.

What these changes to stealth do is actually creates n+1 more possible PvP encounters now. It promotes PvP. Where before, stealth was a crutch for avoiding PvP (except where backstabs were concerned). Stealth was the most powerful "immunity" power in the game. And the ONLY way to counter it was a scout. And this simply forced a huge unbalanced and unhealthy dependency on one profession, scouts. It greatly reduced char diversity in the solo realm and created an environment where immunity to being attacked and avoiding conflict was trumping all... unless a scout was present.

This change is going to feel Skah! for a while for those who either played scouts as their primary or those who simply depended on stealth to always avoid PvP. And like I said, they're just going to have to adapt. There's no more sure fire get out of jail free card when a scout isn't around. It's going to be harder to avoid conflict. BUT most of all, it's going to be easier to find PvP now too. And, you don't HAVE to play a scout any longer just to increase your chances of finding PvP.

It'll soon be easy to tell those who used stealth to avoid PvP from those who like these changes because they can now find PvP easier and get more of it. Just wait to see who cries and who doesn't. The real carebears are about to be separated from the pack.
I don’t think this is a matter of misconception, but one of speculation based on the patch notes and former knowledge of the game; Just like maybe you are speculating that rogues will not be at a disadvantage.

Rogue vs rogue is a wash, but both are greatly affected by the loss of the element of surprise on each other.

Rogue vs mage will likely be completely changed: Rogues usually have complete upper hand in solo play and out in the mob zones with stealth ability. During banes, in GvG play and with Watchful Spire on, mages have complete upper hand due to their range. Rogues will be toast when dealing with mages without the element of surprise. This has been the usual trade off, a mage’s range tools and devastating blasts versus the rogues stealth and speed. I think these stealth changes may create an environment similar to what we see at banes with Watchful Spire on. How many rogues do you see at banes (excluding scouts)? I realize one of the goals is to make some classes have more support purpose at banes and I think this is great, but one of the main reasons you probably don’t see many of them there is because they are quite a bit weaker in this arena. Rogues have stealth to help make up for this weakness.

This change causes everyone to fight out in the open, forcing rogues to become more like fighters with half the health and resists, less damage, but a bit of defense (generally speaking). These rogue changes could possibly even decrease pvp by making the challenge of solo play so great, that everyone must rely completely more on group members than a carefully planned and timely solo attack.

I just think that this HUGE change of essentially giving everyone the scout ability and taking away a rogue’s element of surprise is an extreme way to end the scoutbane and players who avoid pvp problem... There has got to be another way.

I’m just throwing this out, but what if something like, rogues retained their GM stealth ability (or equivalent, where only scouts can see them) providing they are not in a group? I think this would help resolve the imbalance that these stealth changes may potentially casue and at the same time maintain enjoyable solo rogue play.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by 8Shade » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:30 am

CorEL wrote:Then there is this scenario: Let’s say I play a mage who’s still blind as a bat, but I summon my pet and send him in the direction that my Scry tells me. Then I cast my new AOE with 40 unit radius on my pet and then BOOM! …Potentially 60 stealthers either revealed or dead. (Don’t get me wrong, I kind of like this AOE change and I think it will make things very interesting). I also don’t mind this as counter for popping stealthers, as it requires the player to use skill, verses easy mode “detect hidden”. I'm just saying Stealth appears like it may be worthless once it drops down to 20..
Ok, so Scry tells you somebody is north, up to 600 units away (short track range according to the scry topic). If you are so skilled to pop someone with 20 unit radius spell, you deserve to reveal them. You can do that with aoe spells even today. Even if you pop them, they can just use stalk and Anyway, According to the patch notes, scry is point blanc aoe ("reveals those around him") so this situation cannot happen anyway.
CorEL wrote:As far as the ability for a rogue to detect on stalk, that does not seem to relate to or make up for the loss of GM Stealth. Some players, like myself, use stealth to seek out and truly stalk a group of high level players and pick them off one at a time. These stealth changes will greatly impede the ability to do that. I don’t see how 30 seconds of Stalk (even when used in conjunction with an improved Cat Like Tread) is really going to help any rogue launch a surprise attack...especially when he can be seen by every other rogue.
You just don't see the power in stalk. In a real scenario, one will use stalk to pop the other one, when he pops him, they will fight or the other one can now hit running and stalk after the eyes are down (duration 30s and cooldown 180) and attack the other guy again for example with weakened backstab or so. Eyes from BH are only 30s as well, so you will have to react to what you see the other person doing. If you are skilled enough, you will make him waste his eyes by running away and their cooldown is 180, so you can atttack him now with your BH. The difference is now you can actually attack eachother, before you couldnt.
CorEL wrote:I think it’s possible the majority of players who still find reason to play rogue may just save Stalk as an escape route to avoid confrontation. Some players may even find more value in their new Cammo Bot to cammo up their real heavy hitters.
Stalk will be an escape route, yes, but you can still dot him or something and you can pop running and follow him for 30s. I think you should at least try it before making a lot of stuff up. Good player will adapt, bad will cry.
CorEL wrote:If I’m reading correctly, now we are looking at players possibly having even more reason to play scout and a bot scout at that. (Btw…I do much like the other changes that effect Bot reliance). I realize there may be a bunch of whiny players who want to farm in peace, or maybe they don’t want to be harassed by pesky rogues, and hence maybe one of the reasons for these changes, but how do you think they are going to enjoy dealing with cammied suicide bombers? If it’s going to be possible for any character to have a GM camouflage via a scout bot, why even play a rogue with only 30 seconds of Stalk, when you can have that? Am I missing something here? I’m just going by what I see in the patch notes and the forums and maybe I am overlooking a few things, but I hope things are thought out about these rogue changes is all.
I can see the problem as well. Camouflage probably shouldn't give sneak ability, it should give only gm HIDE, so if anyone moves he is out of it. For example rogue druid was removed from the game (from what I heard) because SNEAK + AOE was too powerful and ruined the game. I can see how stealth suicide bombers could do incredible stuff against bad opponents.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Blyster » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:22 am

Witch Sight is only PR-15.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Sek » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 am

Starfish wrote: [*]Mend Wounds' mana cost has been rescaled to 20-100 between power ranks 0 and 40 (from 55 to 63). The healing has been rescaled to be lower at lower ranks.
What are the EXACT numbers behind this? Mend Wounds currently has the following:
"Health Replenishment: 20 — 54 to 27 — 73 points (from power rank 0 to 40) points of Health"

How will those numbers look after the patch?

Thanks.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Colest » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:39 am

8Shade wrote:I can see the problem as well. Camouflage probably shouldn't give sneak ability, it should give only gm HIDE, so if anyone moves he is out of it. For example rogue druid was removed from the game (from what I heard) because SNEAK + AOE was too powerful and ruined the game. I can see how stealth suicide bombers could do incredible stuff against bad opponents.
Truth be told Camouflage was the one skill in this iteration of the Scout changes I had disagreement with. I share much of the same concerns with it as you do. With 5 or so people on the test server at any given time though we couldn't accurately test it's potency so any issues that may exist with it are sure to arise during this public test server and, if our worries see fruition, will be promptly nerfed.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by 8Shade » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:57 am

Colest wrote:
8Shade wrote:I can see the problem as well. Camouflage probably shouldn't give sneak ability, it should give only gm HIDE, so if anyone moves he is out of it. For example rogue druid was removed from the game (from what I heard) because SNEAK + AOE was too powerful and ruined the game. I can see how stealth suicide bombers could do incredible stuff against bad opponents.
Truth be told Camouflage was the one skill in this iteration of the Scout changes I had disagreement with. I share much of the same concerns with it as you do. With 5 or so people on the test server at any given time though we couldn't accurately test it's potency so any issues that may exist with it are sure to arise during this public test server and, if our worries see fruition, will be promptly nerfed.
I can see a combo of one scout and two sentinels will just destroy any lvling group out there and you will see a lot of them if this stays. The only downside to sentinels aoes was that you had to get into the range without being rooted etc. Now you will get there in sneak and maybe even without the group noticing destroy it from the inside. I know that against good players it won't work, but against not as good players it could prove too op. I think CRT should discuss this change more before puting it on test. Giving sneak to classes that shouldn't have it can break the balance on many places.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Blyster » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:25 am

8Shade wrote:
Colest wrote:
8Shade wrote:I can see the problem as well. Camouflage probably shouldn't give sneak ability, it should give only gm HIDE, so if anyone moves he is out of it. For example rogue druid was removed from the game (from what I heard) because SNEAK + AOE was too powerful and ruined the game. I can see how stealth suicide bombers could do incredible stuff against bad opponents.
Truth be told Camouflage was the one skill in this iteration of the Scout changes I had disagreement with. I share much of the same concerns with it as you do. With 5 or so people on the test server at any given time though we couldn't accurately test it's potency so any issues that may exist with it are sure to arise during this public test server and, if our worries see fruition, will be promptly nerfed.
I can see a combo of one scout and two sentinels will just destroy any lvling group out there and you will see a lot of them if this stays. The only downside to sentinels aoes was that you had to get into the range without being rooted etc. Now you will get there in sneak and maybe even without the group noticing destroy it from the inside. I know that against good players it won't work, but against not as good players it could prove too op. I think CRT should discuss this change more before puting it on test. Giving sneak to classes that shouldn't have it can break the balance on many places.
The notion behind this was that because so many more chars could potentially see stealth, that this would 1) be somewhat of an offset to this, and 2) give scouts another ability to make them useful for other things than just reconnaissance.

Although, I think Pin Point is a brilliant mechanic that makes scouts extremely valuable and not just recon-bots.

That said, Camouflage may need something drastic added to it like a 60% snare or -50% dmg/pwr dmg that stays on for the full 120s even if you're popped from stealth. I don't think we need to scrap the entire mechanic, however. It has potential for tactical use, but it might just need some tweaking to balance properly.

This is another reason why the Test server is being opened to the public soon. So we can get a proper gauge on things like this.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by 8Shade » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:41 am

Blyster wrote:The notion behind this was that because so many more chars could potentially see stealth, that this would 1) be somewhat of an offset to this, and 2) give scouts another ability to make them useful for other things than just reconnaissance.

Although, I think Pin Point is a brilliant mechanic that makes scouts extremely valuable and not just recon-bots.

That said, Camouflage may need something drastic added to it like a 60% snare or -50% dmg/pwr dmg that stays on for the full 120s even if you're popped from stealth. I don't think we need to scrap the entire mechanic, however. It has potential for tactical use, but it might just need some tweaking to balance properly.
Yes, I think Pinpoint and Pin down are both great abilities for small scale pvp (especially chasing running opponents). In my eyes scouts will be still very fine (in small groups especially).

I agree that camouflage needs negatives to it to counter what we described in the scenario above (In my eyes something like 50% dmg/pwr dmg debuff for 15 s after leaving stealth would be fine - excluding the scout casting it). If you did the power dmg debuff only for those 120s, you could still time it. You would run to the group a few seconds before the stealth and debuff disappears and you would have no penalty and could do the sneak bomb anyway.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Montek » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:18 am

Are saders still getting this skill??

"Darius' Fist has been renamed to Darius' Judgement. It is now places a Heal over Time (30s) on allies in 16 unit range and a Damage over Time (30s) on enemies in a 16 unit range (up from 10). The damage on this ability has been increased from 8-25 to 10-30 and a 2s cast time has been introduced, previously 1 second."

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Drenath » Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:16 pm

shadowboxer wrote:
Drenath wrote:
Vlaad wrote:Hey Starfish thanks for the reply! Just a few questions;



I know Ive been gone a while but how has a Ranger GoT been so OP that is needed to be nerfed 4 times? Was there a fotm all int high beastcraft nukegers? Did people forget to dispel half the damage with a basic heal?
I bolded the important part of Starfish's post that renders the follow-up questions unnecessary.
I said this in another thread but scouts have been consistent since the beginning of the game. I understand why you feel you have to combat scoutbane but do you think scoutbane exists solely because the population only supports small-scale pvp which is the area scouts shine? Scouts have always sacrificed damage for speed and initiation. Im just not seeing the reason for the dmg/pwr dmg debuff.
Well that's just not true though. They haven't been "consistent since the beginning" unless you're pretending this is 2006. Scouts haven't had to sacrifice damage for mobility since before SB was F2P. Steps are being taken to rectify that.

Let's ask Mr Coleman on Crowfall if he thinks this change is balancing :) There's a reason real game developers that weren't making changes to fit their playstyle left it alone.
Do what now? Left what alone? The changes they made in 2009 when the game was F2P, run by idiots and about to go offline until emulators resurrected it? Do you ever say anything that makes sense?

The changes being made to scouts now are 100% necessary. If you need an explanation, use the search function, it's been laid out at least a few times when people like you came out of retirement and starting bitching and moaning about shit in a game they clearly hadn't played in several years. If you had played SB on either sbemu or mb within the last few years, or if you had played SB during it's final days in 2008-9, you'd understand the impetus for these fixes.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Sleepwalker » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:35 pm

I didn't see anything concerning loot from mobs. I think mobs in general, especially in Pand and PoA, need to have their item drops improved. It doesn't make sense to me that at the highest level of PvE in the game you can't get competitive armor/weapons/jewelry (except for maybe in the first week or two of the server). Turtles shouldn't be dropping 6 def/30 HP LA and Lightforged or Masterwork weapons. Everyone will still want resource gear and it won't impact guilds random rolling what they need, just seems like it would be an easy change to make active leveling more interesting.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by buckly4u » Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:54 pm

Sleepwalker wrote:I didn't see anything concerning loot from mobs. I think mobs in general, especially in Pand and PoA, need to have their item drops improved. It doesn't make sense to me that at the highest level of PvE in the game you can't get competitive armor/weapons/jewelry (except for maybe in the first week or two of the server). Turtles shouldn't be dropping 6 def/30 HP LA and Lightforged or Masterwork weapons. Everyone will still want resource gear and it won't impact guilds random rolling what they need, just seems like it would be an easy change to make active leveling more interesting.
i think the problem here is the rate at which turtles can be killed/respawn... i can see them dropping +7 gear, 8con, 4 resist etc equal to what agate can roll in 1.5... but with the reduced amount of mines, and trees, i think having mobs as easy to kill as turtles dropping gear equal to something that requires a forge/tree to roll might throw things out of whack. i could see maybe r8 mobs dropping gear that is +8 or even the r6 mobs that spawn in poa because they're on a longer respawn timer.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by CorEL » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:44 pm

Blyster wrote:
Vlaad wrote:Does anyone else think the only reason that there was a scoutbane is not because scouts are super over-powered but because the population is so low that there is more small-scale pvp (the area in which scouts excel)?
No, it was 1000% because of detect hidden.
I pulled these comments over here from the Scout Running Thread because it relates to the topic of rogues losing their GM stealth..

Just to expand a bit more though, it actually seems the reason there was a scoutbane was because they are the only class with an EASY MODE GM ABILITY TO DETECT HIDDEN.
Blyster wrote: ...When there's 100 scouts logged in, only maybe 15 thieves, 10 nightstalkers, 10 huntress, 5 rangers, maybe a few assassins, bards, wizzy's, and templars, are you seriously insisting that this isn't absolute proof of a problem?

And why is there so many scouts? Well think about it for a second. What's the ONE BIG DIFFERENCE between scouts and thieves?

A Thief can do EVERYTHING a scout can do, except BETTER. So why aren't there 100 thieves on instead of scouts since a thief is obviously superior in every way? Because of one thing, Detect Hidden.

So arbitrarily "lowering scout's defense" isn't a solution to the problem because scout's PvP prowess and defense is NOT why people play scouts. If lowering defense was a solution, people would simply have been playing thieves from the start. Lowering defense would change NOTHING except gimp scout's survivability and force people to avoid PvP even more. It wouldn't reduce the number of scouts being played because they were still the ONLY profession that could detect GM stealth.

So the ONLY possible solution was to make it so scouts were no longer the only profession that could detect stealthers. (emphasis added)
All I keep reading from everyone in support of these changes (to rogue's GM stealth and changing the mechanics around detect hidden) is that it’s the ONLY POSSIBLE SOLUTION to the scout problem. More cases in point:
Blyster wrote:
...You just have to adapt a bit. These changes weren't at all about "nerfing rogues". They were about "ending the scoutbane meta". And unfortunately, the ONLY WAY to end the scout meta, was to change the mechanics around detect hidden (emphasis added). Detect hidden is the ONLY reason why scouts were the meta in the world of stealth, solo, and rogue play....
GIhunter6 wrote: ...The problem is that scouts are the only class getting any amount of PVP because the only thing that can pop a scout out of stealth is of course another scout (emphasis added).
8Shade wrote:
Hugues wrote:So just cause you can't kill the scout when hes invisible they are op?
Nobody says those changes are made because they are op (backstab changes were because of that). These changes are only because scouts are mandatory in small scale due to people avoiding using stealth. And the only char that can pop anyone is scout right now (emphasis added). I don't know how else to say it so you will understand. I think you just don't see the issue because your playstyle is probably just that.
This is where the real misconception is. There are other ways to pop a scout, but you just have to use some effort and apply a bit of skill.
8Shade wrote:
CorEL wrote:Then there is this scenario: Let’s say I play a mage who’s still blind as a bat, but I summon my pet and send him in the direction that my Scry tells me. Then I cast my new AOE with 40 unit radius on my pet and then BOOM! …Potentially 60 stealthers either revealed or dead. (Don’t get me wrong, I kind of like this AOE change and I think it will make things very interesting). I also don’t mind this as counter for popping stealthers, as it requires the player to use skill, verses easy mode “detect hidden”. I'm just saying Stealth appears like it may be worthless once it drops down to 20..
Ok, so Scry tells you somebody is north, up to 600 units away (short track range according to the scry topic). If you are so skilled to pop someone with 20 unit radius spell, you deserve to reveal them. You can do that with aoe spells even today. Even if you pop them, they can just use stalk and Anyway, According to the patch notes, scry is point blanc aoe ("reveals those around him") so this situation cannot happen anyway.
If I am correct, I believe it is a 40 unit radius spell, and I didn't catch that about being a point blank range, but I imagine scenarios like the one described above could work using Scry or Track without the pet or with other AOE spells. I completely agree with you though about the "deserve to reveal them" part. It is also much more rewarding to rely on skill over something as easy as detect hidden.

Here is a player who doesn’t rely on an easy mode detect hidden ability:
tooshifty wrote:my neph bard is working great for popping things and anti-scouting...i refuse to make scouts atm...im just making other rogues 1v1 that pop toons.

I've back-stabbed and popped enough scouts.

TBH there arent enough toons with an aoe option to pop stealthers. Id rather see more aoe popping options than modifiying the whole gameplay in terms of stealth pvp. I mean.... my bard solves all my Scoutbane problems...now we just need more toons like that.

Well....it still doesnt solve roguebane though i guess.
I 100% agree with him (minus the roguebane part). Why not make the game more conducive to players like him?
8Shade wrote: ...Maybe I shouldn't have used word that scout is mandatory (even thou it is true when you want to find pvp and not just ppl on track without the ability to pop them - excluding aoe etc. - only noobs get caught), I should have probably said something like: scout is overplayed in small scale and the change will promote build diversity in the field and will cut down ppl avoding pvp. Tell me why this is such a bad thing...
Isn't it mainly noobs that run from pvp? The reason this change to rogue stealth is a bad thing is because it takes away the rogues ability to be a rogue by giving over half the classes out there (like thieves) access to the problem (An EASY MODE GM ABILITY TO DETECT HIDDEN) instead of just a counter for dealing with it (ig. Scry-AOE pop).

It completely changes the dynamics of the game in a very possible bad way. For further elaboration please refer back to my post above to Blyster how this could essentially create a worldwide environment of having a Watchful Spire on.

So there are many like myself who agree that there is a problem with scouts and their powerful easy mode tool (detect hidden); it is what makes them who they are. The supposed solution that is being implemented or considered could actually create an even greater problem (a huge imbalance and less enjoyment to the rogue class).

Contrary to what many have been saying, there are other ways to pop a scout (or any other rogue out of stealth), but you just have to use a bit of skill. If I can do it on my Ranger’s gimp Whirlwind attack with 6 unit area of effect (not to say that it was easy) then I don’t see why the entire game needs to be changed. AOE casters are getting a powerful new 40 unit area of affect ability to do this, along with mages getting access to Scry. Maybe these new features could be tested out for revealing first before going to such huge extremes of turning the Watchful Spire on the whole server (30 seconds of Stalk doesn't make up for this).
Starfish wrote: ...The Beserker, Blademaster, Bladeweaver & Storm Lord Point-Blank Physical Area of Effect skills (currently pretty useless in all regards) will be made viable in the next patch. However, if there's demand for that (or casters rule the day) during the testing week, we will bring it forward. This will allow melee to compete with casters in terms of damage output in "zerg" or large number situations.
Very interesting. These AOE changes could potentially kill 2 birds with one stone.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Blyster » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:06 pm

You're missing the point. Being able to mash a reveal and hope you get a stealther in range popped is still not a solution to the real problem. If scouts are the only ones who can see a GM invis player, they will continue to be the rogue and solo realm meta.

Popping stealthers with AoE's was already present and virtually the exact same mechanic as Scry except with an ATR check. And yet, scouts were still the rogue and solo realm meta. BH detect hidden and shades could already see PR-20 stealth (mage stealthers), and yet scouts were STILL the rogue and solo realm meta.

So no, you are not correct. There is no other solution.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by CorEL » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:43 pm

With the new cammo spell won’t scouts still be the only ones with access to a GM Invis (and the 2 they cast it on)? If so then I understand that scouts will still be the only ones who can see a GM invis player and therefore by your same logic “continue to be the rogue and solo realm meta. “ Players who wish to avoid confrontation will still play scout and other players will still play scout to see the other scouts. This change only adversely effects rogue's ability to GM stealth and I don’t see how it will fix the scoutbane problem.

I am not sure exactly how Scry works, so I don’t know that it is virtually the exact same mechanics as track (if that is what you are referring to). Mages didn’t have access to this before (except irekie bard), so that gives them a new tool, plus the area of effect range has been opened up a bit more now. So things could possibly be different going forward with this new combination. Has this been tested out to see its effectiveness on revealing stealthers? Have modifications been made to enhance this combination to make it an even more effective tool for revealing stealthers and has this also been tested out ?

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Blyster » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:13 pm

CorEL wrote:With the new cammo spell won’t scouts still be the only ones with access to a GM Invis (and the 2 they cast it on)? If so then I understand that scouts will still be the only ones who can see a GM invis player and therefore by your same logic “continue to be the rogue and solo realm meta. “ Players who wish to avoid confrontation will still play scout and other players will still play scout to see the other scouts. This change only adversely effects rogue's ability to GM stealth and I don’t see how it will fix the scoutbane problem.

I am not sure exactly how Scry works, so I don’t know that it is virtually the exact same mechanics as track (if that is what you are referring to). Mages didn’t have access to this before (except irekie bard), so that gives them a new tool, plus the area of effect range has been opened up a bit more now. So things could possibly be different going forward with this new combination. Has this been tested out to see its effectiveness on revealing stealthers? Have modifications been made to enhance this combination to make it an even more effective tool for revealing stealthers and has this also been tested out ?
Ugh, your comprehension skills are horrible. Either that or you simply aren't reading the posts in this thread and others. Everything has been explained already in detail and you're just arbitrarily changing stuff and saying things that aren't correct.

Stalk is GM stealth and it also see's GM stealth. And I can't believe you don't know this by now.

And Scry is nothing like track. The "reveal" feature on Scry is point blank around the caster, and it's almost exactly like a typical AoE damage spell except it has no ATR check. Mages cannot see invis with this spell, and they don't get a track window. They get a simple single line message that says, "There is activity to the north.", or which ever direction. That's it.

So tell me, how can you possibly keep criticizing things that you obviously haven't even learned how they work properly? You're just wasting people's time because of this.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Sek » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:18 pm

Sek wrote:
Starfish wrote: [*]Mend Wounds' mana cost has been rescaled to 20-100 between power ranks 0 and 40 (from 55 to 63). The healing has been rescaled to be lower at lower ranks.
What are the EXACT numbers behind this? Mend Wounds currently has the following:
"Health Replenishment: 20 — 54 to 27 — 73 points (from power rank 0 to 40) points of Health"

How will those numbers look after the patch?

Thanks.
Khm, khm...
Can a green name give an answer to this?

Or at least someone who tested it say for how much did it heal your ranger (and to which level was it trained).

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by Sleepwalker » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:25 pm

Neph mages with +40% power damage courtesy of a CC robe & gloves and their MR offsetting the power cost increase? MOTHER OF GOD.

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Re: [Patch Notes] Reforged in Flame Patch 1.5 Beta Testing N

Post by CorEL » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:14 pm

Blyster wrote:
CorEL wrote:With the new cammo spell won’t scouts still be the only ones with access to a GM Invis (and the 2 they cast it on)? If so then I understand that scouts will still be the only ones who can see a GM invis player and therefore by your same logic “continue to be the rogue and solo realm meta. “ Players who wish to avoid confrontation will still play scout and other players will still play scout to see the other scouts. This change only adversely effects rogue's ability to GM stealth and I don’t see how it will fix the scoutbane problem.

I am not sure exactly how Scry works, so I don’t know that it is virtually the exact same mechanics as track (if that is what you are referring to). Mages didn’t have access to this before (except irekie bard), so that gives them a new tool, plus the area of effect range has been opened up a bit more now. So things could possibly be different going forward with this new combination. Has this been tested out to see its effectiveness on revealing stealthers? Have modifications been made to enhance this combination to make it an even more effective tool for revealing stealthers and has this also been tested out ?
Ugh, your comprehension skills are horrible. Either that or you simply aren't reading the posts in this thread and others. Everything has been explained already in detail and you're just arbitrarily changing stuff and saying things that aren't correct.

Stalk is GM stealth and it also see's GM stealth. And I can't believe you don't know this by now.

And Scry is nothing like track. The "reveal" feature on Scry is point blank around the caster, and it's almost exactly like a typical AoE damage spell except it has no ATR check. Mages cannot see invis with this spell, and they don't get a track window. They get a simple single line message that says, "There is activity to the north.", or which ever direction. That's it.

So tell me, how can you possibly keep criticizing things that you obviously haven't even learned how they work properly? You're just wasting people's time because of this.
Firstly, I didn't mean to say the word "still" in the first sentence. There was no way to edit that out. I'm aware that all rogues currently have access to GM invis. Just to clear that up in case there was any confusion.

I think we are just miscomprehending each other. I have been reading the posts carefully, and with regards to Scry it says:
Starfish wrote: [*]Battle Magus's Counterward has been reworked into "Scry", a Personal Detect Enemy and Reveal power.
[*]Scry has a mana cost of 50, a cast time of 3s and a cooldown of 20s.
[*]Scry informs the caster of the whereabouts of nearby enemies and reveals those around him. The caster is not told the name, number, guild, class or race of the enemy - only their direction.
I didn't realize what you meant when you said:
Blyster wrote:
...Popping stealthers with AoE's was already present and virtually the exact same mechanic as Scry except with an ATR check.
We were talking about 2 different things. Now I see that you were talking about the Reveal component of Scry, whereas I was talking about how track was used to pop stealthers (with an AOE) and comparing that to the detection and direction feature of Scry being somewhat similar to the direction arrow on track. For instance I understand that you are informed the whereabouts, so you run in that direction, like "north", and then cast it again (in 20 secs) and then it says "south". That's when you would then cast the new AOE spell with increased range of 40 units to pop stealthers (potentially 60 of them even). The part I didn't quite understand though is if Scry informed how many units away, but the notes say "only their direction" so I gathered it probably did not. That's what I was referring to with regards to the AOE spells range being "opened up a bit more now". So using the direction part of Scry along with the 40 unit AOE pointblank spell it seems that it could be a viable new tool for casters to pop stealthers if modified a bit; plus you have Reveal. How does this not have potential for a solution? btw...Are you also saying that Reveal has no ATR check? So how good is it's range?

Just to clarify, with regards to the Stalk comment and since you are talking semantics: Stalk is not the same as current GM Stealth. Stalk is what I consider a Tier 2 form of invisibility, with JR-20 Stealth being a Tier 3, and Scout's camouflauge being Tier 1 (former GM Stealth). When I say that "rogues lose GM stealth", what I mean is that 30 seconds of GM Stealth that all other rogues can see (while in Stalk) is a complete downgrade from their former GM Stealth.

I am pretty sure that I understand how Stalk works (in theory based only on what I've read), if you think that I'm being critical for thinking that it's a huge downgrade from "Former GM Stealth" then ok. If I am "wasting people's time" for laying out possible scenarios (regarding this stealth change) that could potentially have huge negative impact on the server, asking a few questions and offering a viable solution, that' is not my intention. I've seen far worse things written on these forums.

I'd also be happy to show you the potential for using AOE spells along with Track (or possibly "Scry's" Detect Feature) as a possible solution to this scout problem.

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