lore questions

aeroch
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lore questions

Post by aeroch » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:53 am

i've been reading through the lore available on Morloch and some old Golden Lion threads on UBI, but i have a few questions, and maybe there's not answers...

1. are the Lizardmen descendants of the Scaly Ones mentioned in the Centaur lore? the Scaly Ones were said to worship the Dragon, and i believe the lore also says the Serpent (Beastlord aspect?)
Centaur Lore wrote:They were the Scaly Ones, tall reptiles that walked like men, and they were quick to move against us with dark weapons and foul magic. Many Centaurs were captured and sacrificed by these elder horrors, and we were shocked to learn that these Scaly Ones worshipped the Dragon, and called themselves Its children. The Cohorts quickly gathered, and we rode to war against this new enemy.
and so the Centaur came upon them, there was war, and the Centaurs prevailed and drove the surviving Lizardmen into the bogs and jungles. the shaman and high priests were slaughtered,
Centaur Lore wrote:But even in our victory we were guided by virtue, and still knew mercy: Trilius Truespear, last of the Paragons and Marshal of the Cohorts, decreed that the last of the Scaly Ones should be spared. The warriors and servants of the scaly breed were strong and valiant, and knew little of the dark paths their masters walked: Trilius deemed their lives worth sparing. Once the reptilian theocracy was broken, the few Scaly Ones that remained descended into savagery, withdrawing into the marshes and jungles. The Scaly Ones are still fierce, and hostile to all who enter their lands, but their dark ambitions pose no threat to Aerynth.
leaving the remaining Lizardmen to live as barbaric beasts amongst Drakes and other swamp creature, destined for eternity to be a non-factor. but is there a more grandiose purpose? the Scaly Ones were said to have lived on Aerynth (maybe not Aerynth in particular, but in this World), and are specifically mentioned as having been present on Aerynth, before the Children of the All-Father; so why do they play so little of a role? my personal thought is that they were the original "cult" of the Dragon -- the first Irekei, if you will -- whose conduit to the Dragon was lost during this culling and the death of the shaman.

2. if the Lizardmen are descendants of the Dragon, or descendants of a cult, or of his disciples, then why has the Dragon seemingly deserted them to the bogs? presently the Dragon has chosen the Irekei as his children, and the Irekei are the disciples who opened the Chaos Gate; but Khalikryst, the Phoenix Goddess, Goddess of the Sun -- who i believe is Volliandra, born of the Dragon's flame when He scorched the moon -- as we know from the Dragon Tells (in-game, FC character to in-game persona to Arkhubar(?)), is currently:
[Tell] Kryqho'khalyn: My emia has left her lofty throne and has qurned from the path of righteousness...
[Tell] Kryqho'khalyn: dallying with qhe unworthy.
["emia", assuming this is Khalikryst, and the "unworthy", assumed to be the Temple of the Cleansing Flame.] i think Uvoriel, the patron Archon who grants Confessors and Templars their powers, is a false Archon, or a misrepresentation, of maybe the Dragon or Khalikryst, or maybe Morloch(?), all of whom have granted followers mastery over fire(?).

from what i have read, i believe this is best evidenced by the lack of a specific healing/resurrection spell in Thaumaturgy, two spells which Thaumaturgy alone among focuses lacks, and the only heal offered is purgation and contrition -- a health DD and DoT similar to spells granted to Doomsayers and followers of Chaos, or of the Black (Vampyre drains). Confessors have access to poison as well, and both Templar and Confessor have the ability to manipulate the Undead. these are traits and characteristic of Chaos, the Black, or at the least the absence of the Light, and i believe that these traits, in addition to the gift of flame, are indicative of intervention by Khalikryst. intervention by the Dragon would seem to be a stretch, as He (Kryqho'khalin) seems displeased with the "unrighteous" (again, presumably the Temple of the Cleansing Flame). it is worth noting that the Dragon has been compared by Meridian to Norse mythology, specifically the Ragnarok/destruction of the World, and it has been stated (by Meridian) that the Dragon is a "cosmic force" evident in all three aspects of the Universe: those being Law, Chaos, and Black.

3. Frykka and Draug-Torvald. Torvald is the only(?) remaining Ardani, the last of the Titans. he is now enslaved in death by Frykka, hence Draug Torvald. what does this mean? not much lore available for Frykka and the Amazons, but Frykka is related to the Black, and the Undead are of chief concern at this time. i believe Amazon lore was due for some love near the end of Shadowbane's life.

4. who the Skah! is the Traitor. from what i have read and researched, i think it's Malorn. he pulls out Sesherin's tongue daily to prevent him from speaking the truth, and it's my belief that Sesherin's blasphemies are:

A. truly awful, or

B. Malorn either killed Cambruin, or was there to bear witness of Cambruin's death, thus giving Malorn motive to reserve his Living Saint title and imprison the Aelfborn, Sesherin, who was woefully witness to this most foul event that lead to the Turning.

5. obviously, where is the All-Father? where is Thurin? where is Kenaryn? and where is Grallokur? how will the Long Hunt continue, though i suppose we'll find out when the world ends? (again???)

6. RE: (again???). is the awakening of the Dragon a cycle? has the Dragon risen from its slumber before? is the Ragnarok/destruction of the World characteristic of Order and Law, or is it Chaotic? the All-Father himself created Time and roust the World from sleep and Eternity, is that not of chaotic origin? it seems to me as though the All-Father -- if indeed the Dragon has completed this cycle before -- is disrupting the status quo, and changing the way the World works. the All-Father and the Joten wrote the wyrd and destiny of all living things on the Cliffs of Fate, which certainly would disrupt any preexisting cycle that occurred before the Companions arrived...

6. does it mean anything that Caedric Blackhammer is the Hermit of Wisdom? what of Sillestor, Hermit of Power? and i believe it is Voldrok who is the Hermit of Fortune, but what role does he play on this world? the Bards say that Voldrok was sighted amongst the legions of Chaos on Aerynth, a great host including Kodor, Tarrant(?), and their foul brood.

i'd love to see some discussion; in my opinion, SB had some of the most innovatative lore behind it, and it would be a shame to see it discontinued. i've seen a lot of discussion about retention of players and marketing aspects, and i believe the RP/lore aspect is one of the most overlooked facets. with a well-versed FC/lore team (of which there are several capable community members), i believe detail and attention to lore and SB history could be another solid driving point behind the launch of SBE.

tl;dr drunk and on drugs

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Re: lore questions

Post by ManAgainstTime » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:46 am

hol-ee Skah!.

I would have never expected you to write something like this.

It sounds like the centaur guilds might have to start looking over their shoulder...

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Re: lore questions

Post by Mymloch1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:28 pm

My thoughts:

1) That’s pretty much the conclusion I came to after reading the established lore. The Lizardmen were servants to the old Beastlords, but it’s perfectly reasonable to draw a connection between the Beastlords and the Dragon. I had once suggested that the Lizardmen were descendents of a race that originated from the same world as the Aracoix. But I also took up a lot of Lizardmen lore topics later on in the game, when I felt like their lore was kind of lying by the wayside. I had invented a human raised by the Lizardmen and he was kind of their “savior” that was going to resurrect the priesthood of the Lizardmen, which would possibly ally with Irekei cults.

2) You are correct on this. Most people I have seen give thought to the matter have come to the Volliandra-Khalikryst idea. I remember trying to some of that in story form in “Heaven’s Tale”, which is a narrative by Morloch.

3) Yeah, I agree that Amazon and even Chaos and Titan lore was kind of lacking. I don’t think I ever really studied it very much, but then again, all of this lore ties into each other.

4) I believe that Cambruin’s murder was performed by a Nephilim servant of Morloch, who disguised himself as another human to do the act.

5) I think they’re dead, or they just plain left. Outgrew their toy when it broke, so to speak.

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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:53 pm

good to see ya Mymloch!
4) I believe that Cambruin’s murder was performed by a Nephilim servant of Morloch, who disguised himself as another human to do the act.
would this be the Hermit of Fortune? it's the only NPC lore i haven't been able to find transcribed anywhere and i'm really curious to read it again

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Re: lore questions

Post by Sarthalis » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:10 am

I haven't been on these forums forever! Good post though!

As far as info goes on Frykka, there's a lot of support for Frykka and the Sidhe Fyringael being one in the same. Her association with the black ties in with the original elven necromancers and their transformation to either liches or vampires. I'll try to dig up some more detailed information when it's not so late.

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Re: lore questions

Post by ManAgainstTime » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:44 am

Should we reproduce the Reptilian/Reptilian theocracy/Lizardmen lore thread on here? Or some consolidated version

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Re: lore questions

Post by Mymloch1 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:44 pm

aeroch wrote:good to see ya Mymloch!
4) I believe that Cambruin’s murder was performed by a Nephilim servant of Morloch, who disguised himself as another human to do the act.
would this be the Hermit of Fortune? it's the only NPC lore i haven't been able to find transcribed anywhere and i'm really curious to read it again
Thanks, I still keep an eye on Shadowbane lore. My main account on this forum must be busted or something.

Anyway, I think those three hermits were kind of a lost idea, really. I don't remember anyone ever having to go get their blessings. But the Cambruin being assassinated by a Nephilim is really just a possible idea I made up.

And I really wish I could find all my old Lizardmen stuff. I remember using pictures of Angkor in Cambodia because it resembled the structures.

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Re: lore questions

Post by Purg » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:54 pm

ManAgainstTime wrote:Should we reproduce the Reptilian/Reptilian theocracy/Lizardmen lore thread on here? Or some consolidated version
Maybe consolidate it a little, but I vote yes. It's the only action the Golden Lion will be getting.
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Re: lore questions

Post by Mac » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:35 am

chet wrote:Cones and curn
Good Lord. don't you ever have anything constructive to say or is grunting all you can do? :roll:

And you sig area with quotes is taking way too much room. You are one of the reasons I am sure ConspiracyTheorist is going to have to redo the FCoC again :lol:
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Re: lore questions

Post by Mac » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:49 pm

chet wrote:
Mac wrote:
chet wrote:Cones and curn
Good Lord. don't you ever have anything constructive to say or is grunting all you can do? :roll:

And you sig area with quotes is taking way too much room. You are one of the reasons I am sure ConspiracyTheorist is going to have to redo the FCoC again :lol:
you seem especially angered, got a problem, ace? my signature is completely in agreement with the stipulations as stated in the fcoc; truth be told, you just got corned
lol, eveytime you type you prove your incompetence and ignorance. You also can't tell between when someone is angry or just pointing out your inadequacies :lol:

Looks like Kally needs to put your muzzle on and shove you back in your cage... also maybe she can help you with your fetish for corn? I know she could uncover some deeper issues in your psychoses. ;)
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Re: lore questions

Post by Mymloch1 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:46 pm

Chet's one of the more colorful characters, so we just kind of nod and smile at him, then move on.

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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Fri May 18, 2012 3:18 am

bump for lore. i mean, we almost got a few bites...

and quit mucking up my awesome rp thread with non-rp related threadjacking

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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:21 am

did some exploring and took some pictures related to the swamp lizardmen zones and the naag in new desert, noting some similarities in architecture

ruins in Thollok Marsh
Image

ruins in Vale of Nar Addad
Image

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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:28 am

throwing up some other cool (i thought) screenshots

naag or shuggra eggs?
Image

i found this one relevant to the proposed link between the Naag and the Lizardmen, as this was the ONLY similar style statue that i managed to find, and it was somewhat hidden in a building within the Vale of Mysteries
Image

every other serpent statue was in the same "Naag" style as the first, save for the second green one. hmm....

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Re: lore questions

Post by Indigo » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:29 pm

I've been wanting to help design a lizardman player race in SB for years.. imagine the possibilities.
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Re: lore questions

Post by BeanCurd » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:57 pm

Indigo wrote:I've been wanting to help design a lizardman player race in SB for years.. imagine the possibilities.
I've also pondered about that. Would be dope to see a Lizardman scout running around.
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Re: lore questions

Post by Indigo » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:38 pm

So let's explore this a bit.. what racial ability would a Lizardman have..? What weapon expertise? Spear? Sword & Board? 2-Hand Scimitar? lol...
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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:07 pm

racial root could be kind of cool, uses stamina, granted and capped at JM. Grasp of the Bog or something like that.

don't recall what weapons the Lizardmen NPCs used primarily, but i think it was either sword and board (that kickass yellow lizard shield) or caster. might do something other than weapon skill bonus, seems like Wolfpack moved away from bonuses with the Aracoix/Nephilim/Vampire latecomers in favor of other gimmicks. bow might be a possibility though, i think there were Lizardmen archers, and there isn't another race with +bow

passive power cost reduction would be kinda neat as well, maybe -20% or something. would be a unique racial at least.

+20 poison, -10...something

Lizard City of Kesh (Kolthoss)
Races: Lizardmen.
Classes: Assassin, Bard, Channeler, Priest, Scout, Thief, Warrior, Wizard.

a man can dream...

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Re: lore questions

Post by Indigo » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:29 pm

It would have to come with a new Shaman class that uses some Wizard spells and some Priest spells.
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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:37 pm

Indigo wrote:It would have to come with a new Shaman class that uses some Wizard spells and some Priest spells.
would the lore prohibit lizardmen priests and wizards specifically? not sure what deity the Lizardmen would worship, but priests can draw power from a number of patrons

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Re: lore questions

Post by Indigo » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:40 pm

I would like to explore dual deity models in Jord* and The Dragon, or a combination of the two. I'm going to do a bit more in-game zone research as well to check it out and see what inspires..

I was thinking that the naga model could be used for the spellcasters, but there are definitely lizardman shamans in the swamp.

While this is just talk atm, in your op you've brought up a number of possibilities for future fun and lore expansion..!
aeroch wrote:with a well-versed FC/lore team (of which there are several capable community members), i believe detail and attention to lore and SB history could be another solid driving point behind the launch of SBE.
I second this..
Last edited by Indigo on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:26 pm

I would like to explore dual deity models in Jorg and The Dragon, or a combination of the two. I'm going to do a bit more in-game zone research as well to check it out and see what inspires..
it's kind of interesting. there's a line that's been bothering me from Grimskolderissage: The Story of Cuthric Grimskold relating to Jord and the All-Father's mastery of runes,
At the base of a great Ash Tree the All-Father found the Serpent. Well did the foul snake remember the bite of the All-Father's spear, and cowed before him. "Teach me, cowed beast, the last secret of the Making and Unmaking," the All-Father demanded. "You will know it," hissed the Serpent, "but the learning will take you to the very edge of death, and no knowledge is without its price." The All-Father stood firm. "I am not afraid, Beast Lord," he said, his voice like thunder, "I will pay your price." And so the Serpent lashed out and bit the left hand of the All-Father.
the All-Father never uses a spear! ever! he's primarily described using his fists in combat. can't decide if that's relevant to the Dragon or not, and whether the spear he remembers is in reference to Kenaryn's spear that wounded the Dragon's eye. the timeline is off though, as the Giant telling this story states that it was "Long ago, when the world was freshly made and day was not yet born, after the All-Father had broken the might of the Beast Lords..."

i think it's also worth nothing that the first rune crafted by the All-Father was fire, and that he "saw that in his madness he had clawed the signs of fire into the bark of the ash tree, where they shone red with the blood from his fingers"

certainly makes me think there's an existent relationship between the two

some fun stuff in this ubi thread as well

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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:47 pm

the Enchanter dropper, Sss'shaass'naal, is interesting as well. resides in Voth'ss Swamp, Occult Glyph, and Vranaxxas's Prison in AB. not sure whether he's aloof and just wandering around or if he's tied to Vranaxxas somehow, but it would be an interesting link to Chaos. may be that the Enchanter rune actually has a purpose, lore-wise; it just sucks as a discipline rune

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Re: lore questions

Post by Indigo » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:17 pm

I think there's a key link between the desert races and the swamp lizards.. I believe you're on to something there. I also liked the info you posted in that UBI link, nice find. I didn't know that there was a lizardman race planned before they scrapped the idea.
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Re: lore questions

Post by aeroch » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:35 pm

not entirely related to the Lizardmen, but i'm curious whether they had a hand in the Runegates. it's known that they existed prior to known history and that they were created by a race/entity older than the elves,
Traveler Lore wrote:The Magi and Scholars here at Ondiphel speculate that perhaps the pylons were originally built as conjuring devices, designed to allow communication or travel to other universes, beyond the Void. Evidence is scant, and conflicting theories abound. I have been able to answer another question, however, and I believe you will be quite satisfied to learn of my discovery. Strong evidence now contradicts Magister Trumbo's theory that the pylons were built by the Elves in the Age of Twilight. I have found an ancient Elvish tome in here in Ondiphel's library that dates from early in the Age of Twilight, well before the rising of the Dragon. Even in those Elder Days, the Runegates, which they called "Star Spires," were held in awe by the Elves, who also called them ancient, and seem to have been as baffled by them as we are. Whatever ancient race of force is responsible for their construction, it was not the Elves. I think you have won your long argument with Trumbo at last.
makes me curious whether the Scaly Ones could have had a hand in their construction, or it may just be that there were other civilizations long forgotten who fashioned them

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Re: lore questions

Post by TheWhopper » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:29 am

i think a 20% racial heal over time would be pretty cool since lizards can grow their tails back

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Re: lore questions

Post by Telemakus » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:21 am

Nice job auroch.

I've missed this thread for awhile, but it's really something I'd love to see.

I always felt like the game lacked a lizardman race, a lot to do with nastalgia because the first guild I was in owned undead island on Aerynth. I grew up on lizards, so to speak.

+15 poison, +2.5 slash/crush/pierce resist because of their scaly hides.

Make them not lose stamina in water perhaps?
You can run, but you'll die tired.

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Re: lore questions

Post by kyntyn » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:26 pm

tl;dr drunk and on drugs
me to
" the truth is out and eventually this will all die out."- Peekachew discussing the fact on how -x- cheating will eventually not be discussed.

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Re: lore questions

Post by Cools » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:53 pm

kyntyn wrote:
tl;dr drunk and on drugs
me to
Stop
Cools' Real Estate And Mercantile
REPEAL THE GOLD CAP!

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Re: lore questions

Post by kyntyn » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:02 pm

sad
" the truth is out and eventually this will all die out."- Peekachew discussing the fact on how -x- cheating will eventually not be discussed.

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